Looking for advice on starting a Medical degree at 37.

[MrsMeggles]

I'm looking for practical advice and support on starting a medical degree at 37 (36 now, 37 by the time I would hopefully start) with a two year old daughter. I am at the start of the application process so by no means have I got a place, but it is something that I have put a lot of thought to and I am really passionate about. I studied biology with Neuroscience honours as an undergrad and have lots of friends who are doctors, but this was in 2002 so they are a lot further down the path and studied as single carefree 20yr olds! I have worked in marketing and project management since my degree (to a senior level) however have not done anything science related. But since having my daughter I am just not satisfied through my work and have always harboured dreams to become a doctor. My rational thought process is that with 25+ years still left to work I would like to aim towards becoming a GP in 8-10 years time, with a good 15-20 years still to work as a GP. My husband works FT and we don't have family close by for childcare support. I am aware of fees and we think it would still be worth it bearing in mind the long term earning potential. Am I mad / delusional?

[microscope]

I think everyone who has said go for it has cast iron childcare in place with a SAHP or MIL to stay over. If you don't have that, your childcare will almost certainly be higher than your salary for some years.

[Beanzmeanzcoffee]

I'm going to go against the grain and say if you're sure, really sure you want this then do it. You spend a lot of years working, it might as well be a job that inspires you.

I'm a hospital junior training in emergency medicine. I echo a lot of pps- the hours can be pretty grim with stretches of 12 days in a row including a weekend of 9-9.Tthere seems to be a universal lack of respect for doctors as people by management. Traditionally juniors were single and in their early 20s and pretty much treated as a commodity. It's hard changing that mindset. You can be moved with little say eg the west mids deanery stretches from Stoke to Hereford. You can put forward a case for remaining near dependants though.

Re the poster who compares medicine to business in many ways you're right and I'm working hard to shake off the victim hood because ultimately I'm very privileged to do the job I do, and overall I like it.

What's not really comparable though is the emotional pressure. Covering general medical wards out of hours means 12 solid (usually without a break) hours on your feet rushing from one task to the next. It'll be a mix of stuff-sorting out the best antibiotic for a patient-deciding if someone else is well enough to go home-attending a cardiac arrest-reviewing someone acutely Ill-speaking to an angry relative who wants to blame someone-admitting new patients. In most of those cases you have the potential to make a mistake that can injure or kill someone. And each new job needs to be greeted with a smile. Because the sick man doesn't want to know you failed to resuscitate the patient in the next ward, the person going home has their own commitments and doesn't need to know you haven't eaten or peed for 9 hours. The new patient is worried about themselves, not whether the sick person has improved with your interventions. It's draining and rewarding in a way no other job I've done is.

I did a 4 year course in graduate entry medicine at a pbl uni. It's hard but manageable, I didn't have my children until I'd been qualified a few years. Having DD at uni will make it harder. Having kids during training is mind melting (it's still relatively unusual for juniors to have kids so most hospitals struggle a bit with the organisation of it. My mat pay eg has been wrong twice, organising a return to work felt like an Olympic achievement). My partner is a sahp. I don't know how people organise childcare around 2 jobs.

Ultimately though, despite that rant, I'm glad I did it.

[alreadytaken]

all those saying other jobs are like this are forgetting that they are not usually jobs paying 30k and that the employers that expect moves normally offer generous relocation expenses and other support e.g. school fees. I've also heard of emergency nanny cover.

More to the point - the OP has a job that she is combining with a family at present. She doesnt know what PBL is and so has little idea of what becoming a doctor involves. She does know what other employers offer. If she wants to even consider this she needs to arrange some work experience very quickly so that she has a real idea of what it entails.

As for supporting a child doing medicine - if your child is a fool you dont abandon them to their stupidity, you try to minimise the damage. Quite a few students with medicine degrees do something else when they come to their senses, others emigrate.

[DipsyLaLa22]

So I'm going to buck the trend. I'm a GP and I think it's a great job. I went to med school in my late 20's but was child free at the time. I had 3 children during my ST1-3 years so chose to work part-time during my training. It was quite simple as I job shared and we worried out the rota between us. There were times that I didn't know the rota in advance, and my MIL had to come and stay over at times (she is not local) to cover night shifts if my husband was away with work. I think you'd need a nanny unless your partners job is flexible.

Yes, GP is long days, but you can easily choose how many days you want to work. There are also so many other options alongside clinical work - I spend some time in a non-clinical role for similar pay.

Having been in a completely different industry before starting medicine, I know the grass is not greener.

Good luck!

[microscope]

I'm a current FY1, one month into the job. I've had to give up cycling to work and I haven't cooked myself dinner in about a week because I'm so tired. I do like the job but I have no idea how somebody could do this with children.

This. I went to med school straight from school, and am a GP, so had the luxury of being in a settled hours job before I had kids.can't imagine kids in the junior years.

[OverTheHandlebars]

I'm a current FY1, one month into the job. I've had to give up cycling to work and I haven't cooked myself dinner in about a week because I'm so tired. I do like the job but I have no idea how somebody could do this with children.

[microscope]

I'm in a business where people are asked to travel abroad at only a few hours notice and we have very irregular hours.

for what sort of salary? I'm guessing that you're not asked to do that for under £30k per year.

Well - I know people who were asked to move entire continents at a month's notice and did so, so it's not limited to the NHS. I think medics can be a bit guilty of having a victim mindset about their working hours and uncertainty and it's good to remember lots of people have it bad

fair comment, but again I am guessing that this is at significantly higher salaries. Also asked - not told. If you are in a training scheme you have no choice as to where to go - accept the placement or lose your training number and essentially any chance of progressing in your career.

Does working in a foundation trust hospital make any difference to how doctors are treated? I know for certain that working in a brilliant school with good management lessens the stress on teachers, does the same apply to hospitals?

at the idea that management is better in foundation hospitals! that's a good joke.......

[Kr1stina]

I'm in a business where people are asked to travel abroad at only a few hours notice and we have very irregular hours.

I agree it's not limited to medicine

[HateSummer]

Does working in a foundation trust hospital make any difference to how doctors are treated? I know for certain that working in a brilliant school with good management lessens the stress on teachers, does the same apply to hospitals?

[WorkingItOutAsIGo]

Well - I know people who were asked to move entire continents at a month's notice and did so, so it's not limited to the NHS. I think medics can be a bit guilty of having a victim mindset about their working hours and uncertainty and it's good to remember lots of people have it bad. But yes, I get that having that uncertainty structurally built in is pretty tough.

[microscope]

workingitout you presumably though don't get moved from one place of work to another with no say in the matter and get told what hours you are doing sometins with only days notice. As you say, it is the utter rubbishness of the NHS as an employer and the lack of ability to plan childcare that is the killer.

[WorkingItOutAsIGo]

Just a counter voice: nothing I have read here from doctors complaining about their conditions is that much different from what a high flying business career is like. Given the talent of doctors, that is the sort of things they would be doing if they weren't in the medical profession. I think the real issue is that you have a single employer and feel helpless when you see the terms being unfair and unliveable with, whereas in a business career I have many potential employers.

Just wanted to balance some of the negativity - I often work far longer than 8-6, don't see my kids for days, miss weekends, my DH has to be the one to take leave etc etc.

[Cakescakescakes]

I think the fact you have a child already is the clincher. It is incredibly hard managing childcare when training. My OH is a dr and I had to give up my job to become a SAHM when he was doing his F1 etc as we also have no family around and it was impossible for us both to be working. He was routinely posted hours from home and even when within commutable distance we could easily for for several days without seeing each other due to nights and horrible shifts. GP pay has dropped drastically in really terms since he started working and bear in mind your essential legal indemnity costs too. GP's are responsible for this cost themselves (hospital dr's get it covered for them - here in NI at least) and for him it is £800 a month. It's more than our mortgage. So the headline salary looks huge but once you factor in 40% tax, 12% pension deduction (more for GP's), £800/month insurance then what he is actually left with is only about 20% higher than the fairly average civil service job that I held previously.

[microscope]

It's very different in Scotland as health is devolved.

[M0rven]

Maybe it's different in Scotland? My brother is a GP and he loves it . He works only 3.5 days a week and and supports a partner ( who is SAHP ) and 4 children .

Oldest child is just starting to study medicine , fully supported by her parents . So it can't be that bad !

BTW brother also started as a mature student, although only late 20s and no children, and he was financially supported by his partner.

Another friend also works PT as a GP, which allows him to collect his 3 children from school two days a week , and look aftre them while their mother works shifts as a hospital doctor.

They all find it a good job to combine with having a family , there are very few well paid professional jobs that allow you to earn a good wage working PT and without expecting you to do hours of work at home ( apart from studying for professional exam,s, which everyone has to do )

[WiIdfire]

I'm a doctor and would advise you not to do it. I'm just returning to hospital medicine after maternity leave and have gone part-time. Even so, I don't see my baby 3 days a week, and a weekend on-call means I don't see him between Friday night and Monday night. If my husband needs to travel with work, I have to take annual leave as I cannot make nursery drop off/pickups as it only does 7-7, and I'm out of the house 6.15-7.30.
There would be no problem getting onto the course, or doing the studying, but the job very much takes over your life. It will dictate where you live, when you can take holiday, when you can attend family events even. You can't easily get leave to go to sports days, nativity plays etc, and if your child is ill, your partner will have to be the one to take time off to stay at home with them.
The job itself is great, but then I'm a surgeon not a GP, and I don't know any GPs who aren't miserable.

Good luck whateveryou choose.

[saywhatyousee]

MrsMeggles PBL stands for problem based learning where a case is presented every week and you work through it with your PBL group (around 11 people in my uni) to identify areas of learning. For example, a case involving a person suffering a heart attack would lead to you having to research heart and vascular anatomy, pathophysiology of atherosclerosis, epidemiology and treatment options for heart disease and perhaps some psychosocial elements of heart disease. Don't get me wrong PBL does have benefits- you definitely absorb more info this way than traditional lecture based courses, but I find you can get a little lost along the way. Plenty of unis still offer more traditional lecture based medical degrees so best to do some research into which you would prefer.

[HerdsOfWilderbeest]

I think the experience in NZ and Australia seems to be a lot more positive than it is here.

[MrsMeggles]

Sorry saywhatyousee - what is a PBL uni?

[saywhatyousee]

I started my medical degree a couple of years ago aged 30 and am about to start third year next month. I also have children so will offer my thoughts on my experiences so far and what you can perhaps expect.

I also have a medically related degree and found the content of the first two years of medicine no harder than my previous course. I go to a PBL uni and to be honest (most of the time) PBL is an absolute pain. Hours and hours are spent researching topics and it takes a fair while to realise how much depth is required. I am lucky that I too have a partner but also have family close by who help out with childcare and to be honest, without this, I don't know how I'd cope. Exam time is a nightmare- exams in my med school aren't modular so expect to learn everything covered in the year in one go. Having said that, I passed comfortably so it can be done.

In terms of the practicalities after graduating, you may be eligible to apply for pre-allocation to foundation school if you care for children under 18. This means that as long as you meet the minimum criteria for a certain deanery, you can choose to stay local to your area for at least the first year of training and possibly F2. And apparently, foundation training can also be done part time.

So far I haven't regretted doing medicine, but judging from the previous comments, there is a strong chance I will in the future!

[hobobulate]

sorry, but another in the don't do it camp! I am a doctor. long since finished all training grades. I also had young dc when doing all the junior doctor bit. It was horrendous. I would not recommend it. And from what i can see it is only get worse for juniors going forward with the new contract etc...The GP trainess I work with(when they do placements in my specialty) all work really, really hard. They have often done posts such as paediatrics, obs and gynae etc which have horrendous shift patterns to combine with family life.They move posts every 6 months and have little say over where they're placed, meaning some have to travel long distances to their placements. And then they are all still studying for post grad exams. I really feel sorry for the ones with dc.Then they do their GP bit which always sounds really long days and a struggle to juggle with childcare.
I do actually enjoy the job I do now (not gp) but I am very, very lucky in the job I am currently in, it is quite unique and it has taken me 20 years to get to this point!
If I could go back and do things again I would NOT do medicine.

[ramshacklerose]

Hey OP. I'm starting a graduate medical degree this year, when I'll be 36. No kids, but would like some. Have a friend who will be starting next year, who's a few years older than me and has 2 kids. I made similar judgements to you about the likely length of my working life, and what would keep me satisfied and interested in the long term.

Obviously I don't have experience of doing the job like some posters, but I know plenty of doctors who've managed the student years/Foundation Years/speciality training etc at various stages of parenting. And the thing about a medical degree is that it can take you down lots of different routes. A few people have said to me just how important a supportive partner is if you're going to go down this track, and I'm lucky enough to have one.

I'm expecting it to be bloody difficult, but would obviously recommend you go for it too, if it's what you really want. I may be forced to eat my words, but for now I'm really looking forward to getting started!

[HPFA]

Was interested in comments about working as a CNS. My partner had a stoma for 18 months and was under the care of a CNS. He was incredibly helpful and knowledgable. He appeared to have the time to form relationships with his patients. Of course I don't know what life would be like from the other side but I could definitely see how it could be a very stimulating and rewarding job.

[MacaroonsAllDayLong]

Hmm.... I don't think you are either mad or delusional, but as others have said you would need to go into this with eyes wide open to the sacrifices you (and your family) would be making.

The first part, the 5 years of medical school, would be expensive but utterly do-able - you'd have the motivation and maturity and would likely sail through. You'd get weekends, holidays and no nights.

Then you'd hit F1. You'd apply for this via a national application scheme, so could end up anywhere. And even if you are super-duper and score incredible well, the reality is you would still be applying to a deanery, which can be a massive area, rather than a specific hospital. Then, depending on the deanery, you could be sent to 3 hospitals miles and miles away from each other in your F1 year. And then maybe another 3 hospitals in your F2 year. And each time you moved you'd probably get your rota a week, or maybe 2, before you start. And should you try and get it earlier as you need to plan childcare, you may be accused of being 'unprofessional' and 'expecting special treatment because you have children'. Once you do have the rota, you may discover that you are working 1 weekend in 4, doing nights for a period every month, and routinely doing shifts that finish at 8 or 9pm with the odd 'compensatory' day off, meaning you'd need to have a robust childcare plan.

Once you are through F1 and F2 you'd want to apply for GP training. At this point life would likely get (slightly) better: GP training is 3 years long, and 1.5 years of that is likely to be in GPland, meaning more predictable (although still long) working patterns. However, 6 months of it may be in A&E, working 2 weekends in 3 and having approximately 3.2 days of normal shifts in the entire 6 months. Plus you need to fit revising for your postgraduate exams around working. And find the over £2000 these exams cost.

Then you'd be a GP. Which is tough, but in the area I'm in a salaried session (=half a day a week for a year) pays around £8000, and I know many GPs who are mums who are salaried and do 6 sessions a week = £48000 for 3 days work - but these days are often 8am til 8pm .

This has ended up being rather long but in summary, the med school bit (when your daughter would be 2 to 7) would be fine, but then the junior doctor bit (when your daughter would be 7 to 12) would be very challenging and not well renumerated, and in fact could end up costing you money once childcare is taken into account. Then GP-dom could be relatively well paid and rewarding and give a better work life balance.

Disclaimers: mum of 2 small people, current hospital doctor, only did GP for 4 months as an F2 many years ago.

[microscope]

Gosh, MNers are so unrelentingly negative realistic and helpful

fixed that for you