What are the pros and cons of General Engineering vs one discipline?

[ErrolTheDragon]

I'm trying to understand why a few (good!) unis do General Engineering MEng instead of offering separate EEE, Civil, Mechanical etc. EEE alone seems like a very broad subject nowadays - so, how can a GE course avoid being a bit 'jack of all trades and master of none'? I guess if someone wants to go into some sort of financial or general management type role after graduation it might make sense, but for anyone who wants to end up as an actual engineer I can't see how it could.

(I'm a scientist rather than an engineer myself

[voilets]

FM has been invaluable to my DS on an Eng. degree. Was his 3rd A level after dropping another subject at AS which he was actually initially better at.

[Decorhate]

Thanks Errol!

[ErrolTheDragon]

Thanks!

[Leedsmum27]

Errol

DS copes well on both counts. There is no question that the workload is heavy but I'm sure must be equally so elsewhere. The shorter terms means it is more intense, no reading weeks for example and there is certaintly an expectation of studying in the holidays - he's done a lot in the long Christmas break. To balance - judging on just how much else he fits into his social life balanced with results at the end of year one its clearly very doable to both work and play hard. There is also an expectation of 8 weeks placement before the end of year two - but lots of opportunities advertised through the Department. He thoroughly enjoyed his placement last summer ......and the money he earnt! All relative but DS says workload for natural sciences is heavier.

[ErrolTheDragon]

Hopefully they'll do it as an extra at least up to AS, because just double maths and physics does limit the options if they're not 100% sure what they want to do. And tbh that combination if you're good at maths, isnt the same workload as any other three subjects. Back in the day when I was starting A levels (40 years ago,) my school would only allow us to do 3 unless it was double maths, physics and chemistry.

Sorry I know nothing about Design Engineering courses but maybe someone else will.

[Decorhate]

Thanks Errol. We have a meeting regarding 6th Form this week so hopefully will find out if FM will be done as an extra subject as in previous years or will have to be one of his three choices.

Do you know much about the Design Engineering type of degrees - they are offered at a few unis now & ds is quite good at art so they may appeal to him. But not sure if they are deemed comparable in terms of becoming chartered later?

[ErrolTheDragon]

Maths, further maths and physics, plus computer science to AS and an EPQ for which she chose the 'artefact' rather than essay, designed and built a robot. Engineering, physics and (some) maths courses are the exception to the rule you may see on MN and elsewhere that further maths should only be a fourth subject - it's definitely one which is desirable for engineers although not 'required' because not all schools offer it, and should be taken at least to AS. If your DS was interested in chem eng then obviously chemistry, which is also ok alongside physics and maths for other eng, and for some courses electronics or systems&control would also be acceptable - but to keep options open the traditional subjects are a better bet.

[Decorhate]

Well done to your dd Errol! Can I ask you what A Level subjects she did? My ds (Y11) is now considering an engineering degree. Will def do Maths & Physics. (I went through a different system so didn't have to go down to only 3/4 subjects at this stage)

[ErrolTheDragon]

Thanks, Leeds. Can I ask how he's finding the workload/short terms?

[Leedsmum27]

If it helps ....... dropped DS back at Cambridge yesterday - year 2. On the journey there we were discussing his choice. Acknowledged that had made the right choice of course for him as if not would have taken Mech Eng and now doesn't think that's the way he wants to go. (He does want to be an Engineer). He'd applied for a mix of General and Mechanical. Still early days of course.

Errol - congratulations to your DD. A great position to be in and lots of time to consider her offers.

[ErrolTheDragon]

Just to update ... the theoretical possibility is now reality, she has offers for EEE at Southampton, Manchester and Sheffield, one more interview to go, and an offer for Gen Eng at Cambridge.

So now she's really trying to work out which to go for! It's a choice of two excellent alternatives, I will be delighted either way but it really is a fork in the road.

[ErrolTheDragon]

I'm pretty sure she won't want to be a banker - when asked what she wanted to do in yr 1 she said ' a builder ' - really meaning an engineer, someone who would create things. Dinosaur teacher told her girls couldn't be builders ... Fortunately this served only to embed resistance to gender stereotypes.

[bojorojo]

My DH finds exactly that, RaisingSteam. Lots of graduates come for interview but so many are short on communication skills and any idea of how a business actually works, never mind being able to solve basic engineering problems (structures). The graduates are sometimes very short on being able to think their way around a problem, even to the extent of designing a steel frame that was too big for the building. Obviously this was discovered before it became a financial disaster, but common sense can be lacking and it does not matter where the degree is from!

Getting Chartered is not down to whether the degree is from Oxbridge or not. It is far more complex than that. My DH was Sheffield (still a top place for Civils) and was Chartered MICE at 24 and had second Chartered status (MIStructE) at 26. This is quite difficult to achieve these days (impossible?) with CPD and 4 year MEng courses, but if a graduate is bright, gets the right CPD and has a job in a top Engineering Company with an excellent graduate engineer programme, then fast track is possible. However, not all jobs are the same which is why graduates should be careful about just going with the year in industry placement. Yes, it is a job, but they may not have the best graduate scheme. In fact, my DH's first employer was dire. He chose a nationally known company and thought it would be ideal. He was wrong.

[RaisingSteam]

You've had some good comments already. I am chartered in another discipline, I did the Cambridge degree in the days of the 3 year course and an MSc at Imperial.

TBH the Cambridge MEng degree will have a lot of solid EEE packed into years 3 and 4, in fact it was at least a third of years 1 and 2, (to my distaste ). Tended to be less on practical stuff i.e. here is how you turn the handle, but a lot more on first principles. People who have covered that stuff are better grounded for pushing the subject forward in the future.

I'm just about to employ a Cambridge grad for my team not because she has done XX papers and projects in the exact discipline but because she had stand out communication skills as well. i.e. I need someone who can not only do the work but write the bl**dy report too. Rare find these days.

TBH it's probably mostly tradition and the way the degrees and departments are set up. If I had my time again I'd like to think I'd have foregone the punting and May Balls and gone straight to Imperial.
I think the long and short of it is if you have the grades to get into Oxbridge etc then having slightly less formal teaching in your subject won't hold you back in your career. Either option could work fine. Please just don't go and become a banker!

[ErrolTheDragon]

Another round of thanks is due.

[wifeofdoom]

Mechanical engineer here who sometimes recruits engineers (generally grad plus at least 3 or 4 years).no issues with the Oxbridge etc general eng courses - they all specialise at the end so come out with accredited degree and are good routes to charter ship. I did one myself. I would say advantages are not having to specialise too soon (ideal for me, maybe not for your dd), also a good grounding in all disciplines. So I have a grasp of basic electronics and electrical systems that means I can hold my own in a conversation / project. hard work doing something that doesn't come naturally however, which is a minus whilst studying. Oxbridge has definite advantages when looking for jobs (and prob chartership if I'm honest) but isn't for everyone.
Frankly if you are good, interview well and are passionate about your work you won't struggle to get a job with a decent engineering degree - we always struggle to recruit. Industrial experience is great if you get a good placement/ employer not so much if not! And whatever the uni says about its links to industry you will need to put in the legwork if you want a good placement.
Good luck to your dd!

[QuackDuckQuack]

Even summer placements can lead to job offers. A full year in industry doesn't have a complete monopoly on job prospects.

[errorofjudgement]

A good year in industry placement can lead to a job offer before you start the final year - so one less concern.
However, DS1 who graduated last Summer did the straight 4 year aerospace degree and got an excellent graduate engineer post that provides all the additional support and training for the Chartered Engineer status. At the Graduation last July, all of DS friends had jobs lined up, and the University was appealing for any that were still looking to come and see them after the ceremony as they had a number of unfilled research roles that they needed graduates for.

[errorofjudgement]

Yes, as Bojorojo says they all move to Leamington :)

[bojorojo]

I meant to add that I think GE does suit people who are not sure what type of engineer they want to be or whether they want to be one at all. Lots of students who are really sure, do want a course that reflects their interest for all four years. Just look at what is studied and decide if the general courses involve studying areas of engineering that are of marginal interest. If the course meets requirements, and MEng courses will, then it is really down to what you prefer. All the top universities offering EEE have superb employment rates.

You cannot always assume the year in industry will be great. A four year full time at university is better if the year in industry is of average quality. I would also ask if they have enough good placements and how competitive it is to get the right one.

[bojorojo]

Jeanne16. I think lots live in Leamington Spa for yr 2 onwards.

[jeanne16]

Errorof- thanks for this. On a separate note, has your DS found accommodation at Warwick ok? Where do they all live after 1st year?

[errorofjudgement]

My DS has just finished his 3rd year at Warwick on the GE course. He has specialised in a particular type of mechanical engineering which will be reflected on his degree & he is one of only 2 students with this particular combination.
They work closely with WMG (Warwick Manufacturing Group) & the lecturers DS has are really good.
From what I remember in the literature, Warwick makes the point that because you can specialise in a range of topics, then the graduate numbers by specialisation, are too small to be included in the specialised tables.
DS is loving Warwick, there is s mix of those who are "genuine" engineers, & those taking the engineering degree as a stepping stone to graduate business roles.
In contrast though, aerospace engineering does seem to require you to specialise from day 1, & was the reason DS1 ruled out the general engineering courses.

[ErrolTheDragon]

Jeanne - someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that the the options at Warwick allow for 'deferred specialism' in Electronics (with IET accreditation) but not electronic and electrical. (I may have got this wrong, there's some reason it's not on DDs list, and that's one of her criteria)

[ErrolTheDragon]

Jeanne - yes,,, though the workload at eg Southampton didn't look like a doss either ... I don't think any good science or eng degrees are.

I'd guess imperial doesn't really need to sell itself - I believe it's one of the few places that has sufficient excess of applicants who are sure of making the a level grades that they have to interview. I'd guess that if you live in London or want (and can afford) to live there it tops a lot of candidates lists.