Can anyone advise re Oxford colleges for Maths?

[GeorgeTheThird]

DS1 will be applying this October and has a reasonably realistic prospect of getting on an excellent maths degree course. (All A /A^ at GCSE and A in his mocks this year). He loves maths, does extra maths, reads about maths, does the Olympiads, is happy to do MAT and STEP papers in his own time... etc

Can anyone give any help as to which college to apply to? He is at a mixed school in the North that is only moderately selective, enjoys music and debating but is not at all sporty. He is sensitive, articulate and not at all arrogant or "macho" (for want of better descriptions), he is not massively competitive and is open to applying to a historical college but not especially set on doing so.

He has been wondering about St Anne's and Keble? Any ideas, anyone?

[bojorojo]

I believe, George, that the Oxford Colleges are ranked according to academic results - this might be of interest. When my DD applied, we looked at ones in the lower half! (Google: Oxford Colleges Academic ranking - it is the Norrington Table). We knew she was not brilliant and therefore the big name colleges did look unrealistic.

For 2015, Norrington puts Magdalen is 1, New is 2, Wadham is 3 and Balliol is 4. The lower 4 are: Somerville, Lady Margaret Hall, St Edmund Hall and Pembroke.

I had better not say which one she chose, but of the people we know who have been from our local grammar schools, they went to Keble, Lincoln, Somerville, St. Hughes, St. Annes, Exeter and Pembroke. These represent top ten and bottom ten! I think lots of young people do want the beautiful old colleges and places like Christ Church, St Johns, and Magdalen will always be popular. That is not to say you should not look at these colleges, but the ones with newish buildings are also definitely worth a look!

[Molio]

bojo but the problem with that is that some of the ones languishing at the bottom of the Norrington in any particular year may then be on a big push to get particularly able students for the new intake and that's leaving aside the Oxford system of re-allocating.

[hayita]

I always think it is a mistake to try to analyse which colleges look "easier". There are far too many unknowns in this, not least that other applicants are playing the same game, so a less over-subscribed college may well become more popular.

Also at both Oxford and Cambridge colleges which are further down the Norrington/Tompkins/Baxter tables frequently offer to students who applied to the big name colleges over those who applied directly to them as first choice. Pretty much all the maths students that Trinity (Cambridge) puts in the Cambridge pool get offers from other colleges, for example.

[bojorojo]

Yes Molio. I do agree that can be a problem. However, some of them are always appear to be in the lower reaches. If they take allocated students, maybe they just do not have enough good students applying in the first place?

At our school, there was no advice on where to apply either so we had the same problems as the OP. It is very difficult to find out where your DC might be most suited. It really comes down to having a good look around and seeing whre you feel more at home. Have a good look at the student body. I do think second guessing where you may get a place is difficult and for maths, all students are taking extra tests so one would think entry to the whole university is perhaps more even than it might be for essay subjects. However, that is probably a wrong assumption too! I guess if you do extremely well, the university will find a place for you but DD decided it was best to choose rather than be allocated. (She was horrified at her allocated college at Durham - it was the one she liked the least!)

We took the view, in the end, that DD would apply to the one college a former student at her school had gone to. Although an independent school, Oxford was a destination once in a blue moon - hence no help. It is hard when you feel others are better advised.

[Molio]

bojo re-allocating in the sense of moving an applicant for college A to college B pre-interview, rather than going the open application route. But that all varies with subject anyway! Just go for where you reckon you'll like and if it doesn't work out you'll probably like the other college too!

[GeorgeTheThird]

molio We are up North, but it is a good school. I'm not suggesting he's disadvantaged, and he wouldn't qualify for a contextual offer.

[bojorojo]

I did not express myself correctly. I was referring to students not getting in at college a but being sent for a second interview at college b. I think nearly all students like their colleges but having a second interview is nerve wracking and being turned down twice, as happened to dd's friend, was not a good experience.

[Molio]

But bojo in the subjects where that sort of pooling applies, if you're sent elsewhere at least you know you're not a definite 'no'. If you're sent home without an interview elsewhere and then get a rejection you know you were in the bottom cut. Also no-one can actually 'choose': you may get re-allocated pre-interview, you may get the second allocated college in science subjects, you may get pooled absolutely anywhere in humanities. Applying is no guarantee of anything unless you're a super strong applicant so it's best to be conscious of that.

George if accommodation is particularly important to your DS then apart from ascertaining what 'college accommodation' in the prospectus actually means, I'd seriously take a look at which colleges are in the middle of massive refurbishment programmes because that can throw things too, and can have a big impact on life while you're there.

[Molio]

You need to know their three year plan because scaffolding can appear in a trice!

[MrsWobble3]

My dds school is currently advising that you make an open offer to Oxford unless you have a particular (and academic) reason for choosing an individual college. I assume this is based on the way the pooling of candidates works but don't have any further information. The school's advice is that everyone who gets in loves their college (which I would agree based on my anecdotal knowledge) and given the pooling system why set yourself up to be potentially disappointed unnecessarily.

[mummytime]

I'd apply to a specific college - rather than just open. If you go just open, there are colleges you are very unlikely to get, and it does show a bit of a lack of bothering to do the homework.

If you go to the website for my old college they have video tours etc. You can also get a bit of the history, find out a few facts, and look up the lecturers and fellows (nicely arranged by subject), you can then click on their names and find out a bit about them and their interests. (In Maths at my old college one of the fellows talks about being paired in tutorials with Andrew Wiles (proved Fermat last theorem), and feeling unintelligent.)

It doesn't take much effort to learn a bit, and shorten that list of colleges down - and yes it's all random - and you may be just as happy in St Hugh's as Christ Church, but its worth thinking about it a bit first. And you might also be just as happy at Durham or Warwick too.

[DrDreReturns]

Take this with a pinch of salt but I heard that Queen's College has links with the north of England. I don't know what it's reputation is like for maths.

[DrDreReturns]

I mean Queen's College, Oxford.

[mummytime]

I thought it was Brasenose? But I've known people from "the North" at a wide range of colleges. (It used to be that anyone from the "North" or Wales were known as Welsh - I think this was before about 1850 ish.)

[DrDreReturns]

I thought Brasenose was linked to Lincolnshire? Jesus was the 'Welsh' college.
I got all this from my Dad who went to Oxford fifty years ago, so like I said take it with a pinch of salt!

[mateysmum]

Reading your OP OP, I can highly recommend St Anne's. Not that I'm biased of course - oh no! I am a St Anne's graduate and keep in close touch with the college and many friends I made there. I too am a northener from a not posh school and I can say hand on heart that St Anne's is one of the most open, friendly and down to earth colleges. Being slightly (but not too far) out of the centre and having modern/Victorian buildings it has a different atmosphere and genuinely goes out of its way to welcome people from all backgrounds. I am immensely proud that the college I believe gives more support to students financially than any other college in Oxford despite not being a rich college. They are about to open a new library and can accommodate all students on site for all 3 years - not something all older colleges can do. Please PM me if you want more info.
Having said all that and having gone through the application process with DS last year, it now matters much less which college you apply to than previously. In the old days if you didn't get in to your first choice college it was very hit and miss if you would get in at all. Oxford are now making real efforts to ensure that all those who deserve a place get one by cross referencing applications and spreading good candidates around.
Also, you are not exclusively taught in your home college of course.
Good luck to your DS whatever he chooses.

[Needmoresleep]

A question? Do the interests of the tutors within a college make a difference? Perhaps not maths, but I had heard that it can make a difference with smaller subjects. And indeed that if you are lucky and interviewed by the right person, sharing an interest with the tutor can make the process more enjoyable.

[alreadytaken]

I didn't suggest he was disadvantaged, Molio, but there are some students who don't want to go to colleges that discriminate even if they do not qualify as disadvantaged themselves.

There are many people involved in helping disadvantaged youngsters and unsurprisingly the results do get discussed so no, it is not based solely on personal experience. Your childish insults reflect badly on your argument. This year produced another example of a candidate where you should need a very good reason not to take them.

When Oxford starts taking more disadvantages candidates there will be no reason to repeat the warning.

[FordPerfect]

Back in the late 1980s Queen's had a high proportion of Northern students. I don't know whether that has changed significantly or not.

When DS and I visited various random colleges last year we both liked St Anne's as an alternative to the central old colleges and also St Peter's. When we looked around some of the older colleges, some of the rooms were surprisingly grotty compared to the newer ones.

[mummytime]

What about LMH's new scheme? They are running a foundation degree scheme specifically targeted at disadvantaged youngsters.

Other examples of trying to get past the disadvantage gap include: my old college is doing partnership work with a primary school in Oxford in a highly disadvantaged area (the children there rarely even get into the City centre). Actually my old college was often biased in favour of disadvantaged students as "at least they are bright to have got the grades".

The issues need to be dealt with a lot sooner than A'levels, so that as many bright pupils from disadvantaged areas get top grades, just like those at private schools.

[Molio]

Self reflection is a characteristic of a mature not a childish person alreadytaken. I can't see that your comments are anything other than misleading without knowing broad numbers that you've attempted to help and the colleges you wish to cast aspersions on. FWIW it doesn't chime with my experience at all. The disadvantaged do indeed have disadvantages but I see no evidence that discrimination for the sake of it among Oxford tutors is one of them. My suspicion is that you're generalizing from a very, very small number and that you may not be in as good a position to judge applicants as the tutors themselves, so may simply be calling it wrong.

[Molio]

Needmoresleep DS3 shared a fairly niche interest with one of the interviewing tutors and it certainly eased conversation but that was purely fortuitous; I don't think you can ever bank on a particular tutor for interview.

[Molio]

Ford Queen's is about to embark on a huge building programme.

[GeorgeTheThird]

I'm still browsing, and this morning have had a look at Univ which I see offers "Maths Week" to all new students before welcome week.

Does anyone among you knowledgeable people know whether this is a widespread thing? I heard of it for the first time today, it sounds like a plus?

Thanks so much, everyone.

[Needmoresleep]

Molio, I was asking because a friends daughter (niche subject, state educated and little support from school) got informed advice about the interests of various tutors and where their interests matched hers. She chose to ignore it, apparently being more impressed by the lawns elsewhere (almost certainly an exaggeration!) and had a tough first interview on the aspects of her subject that interested her least. Luckily second interview was at the college she had been advised to apply to in the first place and she did fine.

I was not really thinking about the interview but whether there is merit in looking at where the most interesting tutors are, in terms of the next three years. DH certainly had a great tutor and it seems to have made a big difference.

I understand it can matter if you are something like a chorister or rower.

(I had wanted to contribute to the thread on the basis that my mum read maths at St Anne's in 1947. She was from the north!)