Oxbridge - please can someone explain something to me

[Onedayinthesun]

Just to give some context, I have a neighbour who is a shameless bragger about her child, for the past 5 years she has talked incessantly about what her kid is going to do with their life.

Never has actually said little Johnny has accomplished X Y or Z. Always, this is what he is going to do.

Since he has been 12 yrs old I have had to listen about his mothers his aspirations of becoming an
Officer at Sandhurst,
A Doctor
Head of John Lewis (after he got his first Saturday job)
A Vet
A Banker in the City
And a Partner at KPMG

She has told me today that little Johnny will be applying to Oxford to study a degree that has no relevance to the above list of careers - and that given their policy for positive discrimination, as little Johnny, in her words is a "bright young thing"??? and from a middle class family and goes to the local comprehensive then he has a better opportunity of securing a place than those attending the best fee paying schools in the country.

Note. This kid did not get straight A's or A* at GCSE for every subject.

I didn't go to Uni, but run my own successful business so not having a degree has not held me back in life, however I get the distinct impression my neighbour (who places such importance on matters relating to education and social climbing) thinks I'm a total fool to think that Oxford select students for their courses on this basis. She is deluded right?

[sassymuffin]

maydancer DD was told by her director of studies it is ridiculously difficult to commit to any regular shift work within the Uni as her workload is very essay heavy and unpredictable. Most of the available work in her college is bar work and at the moment that has been snapped up by the students that are going on a year abroad next year and are trying to save for that. They have usually put there name down for this the previous year. This was DD's workload last week: 12 hours of lectures, 3 supervisions, 2 x 3000 word essays (one included over 60 cases to research) and that included 22 hours of reading/research. Usually she has at least one all nighter each week.
Also I was on minimum wage and did't earn enough to trigger the 20% drop iyswim. Even though I did not earn a lot what I did earn was going to help out.

boys3 DD's rent (cheapest room) minimum dining requirement, service charge and insurance is £1750 per term.

[boys3]

sassy interesting that there is such a difference between colleges in terms of costs. Your DD is paying almost £1k more than DS1 this year - and he's not in the cheapest rooms either. His is a very old and very central college, although why that should cost quite so much less I'm not sure - I get the impression it has quite a lucrative conference business going on outside term times, but I'd imagine a lot of the other colleges do too. But I have to admit I had not appreciated quite the difference in costs.

[sassymuffin]

boys I didn't quite appreciate the difference either

[disquit2]

Molio, you are misquoting me. I didn't say that all kids at superselectives are privileged. I said that it would be ridiculous to assume that kids at a superselective like Henrietta Barnett are (automatically) less privileged i.e. one has to look at all the information available, including references from school, info about whether parents had higher education etc. I did not say that kids from superselectives are always privileged.

And in reality having interviewed many, many kids from schools such as Henrietta Barnett I would say that a fraction of them are very privileged indeed, and do come from very "middle class educated wealthy" backgrounds. That does not mean that I automatically assume this, nor that I do not take into account that kids from such schools have very different backgrounds.

But I would be failing in admissions if I did not take into account the differences between state superselectives such as Henrietta Barnett, state selectives such as the one your children attend (which has quite different demographics etc to HB), non-selectives, sixth form colleges, "secondary moderns" etc. State education is not one category.

[Molio]

I completely agree with all you've just said disquit - but it was certainly worth expanding your original comment as you have now done.

[lasermum]

One key difference between some comprehensive schools and superselectives/private schools is the support and encouragement given to possible Oxbridge candidates. DS1 is at a good comprehensive and is considered to be very able at Maths (eg got to Kangaroo round in Senior Maths challenge last term and had a raw score of 172 out of 175 in Further Maths GCSE last year).

The school has a very equitable approach to everything. Some general Oxbridge info has been sent to all students but no one has suggested to either my son or us that he should consider Oxbridge. I guess we should ask the teachers for an honest assessment. My son isn't sure he wants to apply to Oxbridge anyway and I don't want to encourage him if he will effectively be wasting one of his 5 choices.

But I am sure if he was in a private or superselective school, conversations will have already taken place and pupils in year 12 will know whether they are considered by their teachers to be Oxbridge material or not. (Not that would stop little Jonny's mother). Certainly many of my friends with dc at private schools have told me about this approach in the schools they send their Dc to.

Interestingly DS1's school stopped publishing a list of leavers destinations a few years ago and so I have no idea if anyone went to Oxbridge more recently although I know that historically around 4 pupils were successful each year.

Maybe I am expecting too much but a few (preferably unprompted) words of encouragement from a teacher would be very helpful for my shy geeky son.

[FordPerfect]

Laser mum if you think Oxbridge might be a possibility I suggest you take your son to the open days at both universities over the spring/summer. At my son's school (independent) afaik no-one ever suggested that he apply to Oxbridge. I am not sure about the other pupils - I have a feeling that those who wanted to apply found out about courses and entrance requirements so it was a self-selecting process rather than the school deciding who was suitable. Look on the Maths websites for both universities and encourage your son to do lots of hard Maths problems - I think my son worked his way through an Olympiad book which was very helpful. Also both universities use different entrance tests (Cambridge uses STEP and Oxford MAT) so it would be useful for him to look at both types of entrance papers to get a feel for what he needs to cover. If he is achieving highly it won't be a problem using Oxbridge as one of his 5 choices as he is very likely to get several offers. Also the process of preparing for these entrance tests will take his Maths to another level. Another thing to bear in mind is that some other universities (Warwick & Imperial and perhaps others) use the Oxbridge entrance tests so he might end up needing to prepare for their tests for other university choices.

Anyway, very best of luck to you and your son in your decision-making and I am happy to answer any questions.

[Want2bSupermum]

lasermum It isn't a waste to apply to Oxbridge if your Ds is talented in that area. I would always champion anyone stretching themselves academically. I would be reaching out to Oxbridge and asking for a tour of each plus speak to them about the application process. I know they used to do summer courses to help certain groups of students prepare for the exams and application process. Those courses were free. I assume they still offer them.

[RhodaBull]

The thing is the courses are for those who meet certain criteria - parents didn't go to university, income below a certain level etc.

But it's worth having a go. Ds decided the week before the deadline that he would apply, and he had no help. He certainly hadn't been prepared since he was a foetus for entry. He got as far as interview and was told he was a near miss. A miss is as good as a mile, I know, and maybe he would have sneaked in if he had had a team behind him.

[Want2bSupermum]

rhonda I agree regarding the criteria. Personally I would like those courses to be offered to any child from a state school.

My cousin went to a private school that wasn't academic so had very limited experience of the Oxbridge application process. It was our family who put a team together drawing on every person in our local area (including our MP!) and network to help her. She ended up being very well supported and was offered a place. That support made all the difference.

[RhodaBull]

The local MP! Ds's team consisted of me reading Mumsnet!

[maydancer]

My DS applied for maths at cambridge this time and I am a bit mystified by some of these posts.He just applied for Cambridge the same as any other.I don't think there was any need for any preparation.The only thing was he started doing STEP and BIOS questions
Cetainly for maths I don't think you need any special preparation

[OneMagnumisneverenough]

High performing students in my DSs state school seem to be eschewing Oxbridge for Harvard.

[disquit2]

But maths at Cambridge is a special case because selection is mainly by AS UMS and by STEP, and interviews are like mini STEP papers.

However, I agree that people are over-estimating the amount of difference that interview preparation actually makes. Drawing together a team involving a local MP to support an Oxbridge application seems a beyond absurd level of preparation to me.

Even with "needs blind" admission, Harvard is not going to be an option for the vast majority of UK students (financially, as well as in terms of academic profile). And as an alumnus of both Harvard and of one of the Oxbridges, I would find it surprising that high performing UK students would automatically opt for the former: Ivy Leagues offer something very different from Oxbridge, and many UK students would prefer what is offered by Oxbridge. (More specialised, higher level at the start.)

[Want2bSupermum]

The local MP was great for interview practice. My cousin didn't have a clue. She was so very nervous and clammed up. After the 4th practice interview she was much more relaxed with much less brain freeze. She ended up having about 7 or 8 practice interviews.

[FordPerfect]

The great thing about Maths is that there is a lot of material online. Perhaps the best thing a parent can do is to help the applicant find the material and then it is up to the DC to get on top of the syllabus and become comfortable with the types of questions in the entrance tests. I think my son looked on Student Room which had a list of questions that had (supposedly) cropped up in previous years in interviews. Working through these was good as it gave him practice in tackling hard questions and not being fazed by the unknown. What I am trying in a roundabout way to say is that provided the Maths teaching in school is good enough and the applicant has an aptitude and puts in the work, there is no reason why he/she shouldn't have as good a chance of getting in as anyone else.

Also, I am not sure how important it is but perhaps encourage any students to read at least a couple of Maths-related books and to attend any lectures (some might be online) to broaden their scope and demonstrate their interest.

[Molio]

Yes I'm surprised by some of these posts too, especially the idea of requesting a tour :)

At my DCs school (state superselective) the information and advice is there for all those who sign up for it, not for a selected group. My DC have never had more than a single practice interview once they'd been shortlisted and no help at all with aptitude tests. If they'd asked for help with any particular aspect of the test then no doubt a member of staff would have been ready to help but the university websites were the place to go for the best information, so that's what they did, plus each went to the June Open Day. It's best not to overstate what actually happens by way of preparation because those sorts of myth can put applicants off. There is no mystery to it though I suspect some independents like to make out that there is.

[boys3]

Interestingly DS1's school stopped publishing a list of leavers destinations a few years ago and so I have no idea if anyone went to Oxbridge more recently although I know that historically around 4 pupils were successful each year

Lasermum stats individual school are published by Cambridge here

www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.uk/apply/statistics

See the Applications, Offers & Acceptances by UCAS Apply Centre PDFs on the right hand side

I've seen the same stats for Oxford, but have not got a link to them

[maydancer]

disquiet
..but maths attracts way more applicants per place than some subjects.Even taking into account maths maybe issues twice as many offers as places, it is still statistically more difficult to get an offer than in most humanities subjects.

[disquit2]

But the methods for filtering candidates are very different in maths than for other subjects. Maths is rather objective, in that most interviews involve maths questions and scoring based on success in these questions.

And by the way it is rather misleading to talk about the number of applicants per place. Many students are encouraged to apply for maths if they are targeted A stars - but vastly more students get A stars in maths than there are places at Oxbridge. (In 10-20 universities offers for maths involve A stars - maths offers are higher than they are for many other subjects.) So there are lots of applicants for maths. However, it is already clear from the start that many of these won't be getting offers, as their UMS scores indicate that they aren't strong enough. Many "weak" applicants will still be interviewed, just so they get a chance to show what they can do, but the actual pool of realistic candidates isn't anywhere near as large as it would seem from the application statistics.

[lasermum]

Thank you very much for all your useful replies.

I haven't been able to find DS's school in the Cambridge lists so it looks as if no one has been selected from his school in recent years which is interesting but not very encouraging.

We will go to an Open Day at each uni and then DS1 can decide if he wants to apply or not. We don't live in an area of deprivation ( the opposite), I went to a red brick uni in the days before Russell Group and we won't qualify for extra assistance on the grounds of income so I think we are on our own!

I know there is lots of useful info on Mumsnet so I will start reading!