Anyone applying for Medicine or Dentistry?!

[mummywithquestions]

Anyone started preparing their application yet? It seems a bit earlier than it was when I first went to uni but my son is already well underway with his personal statement and UKCAT/BMAT preparation.

Just wanted to speak to other mothers to share the stresses of UCAS and chat about upcoming interviews etc!

[DentalPrep]

Hi I am a 4th year dental student. If you require any help, feel free to message me here or via my Facebook page.
facebook.com/dentalinterviewprep

[NurseDoctor]

lougle sorry I know this is an old thread so circumstances may have changed! I am not on GEM so not sure how much help I can be but I am a qualified adult nurse (graduated 2009) currently in my second year of a 5 year medicine program. I found my nursing background was VERY helpful and received all 4 offers, so it can be done. I avoided GEM for a few reasons. The competitive nature (it is MUCH worse than 5 year... and that's saying something), I did not have a strong science background (I did humanities ALevels) and the intensity of the 4 year program. The funding is also not much better than the 5 year now as the support has slowly dropped. Financially I am not much worse off than the GEM students as I actually have time to work (4 months off for summer first year) and can therefore top my money up very easily. Final year is fully funded by the NHS anyway. My university also offer fee waiver support, and I therefore pay £6000 per year tuition fee as opposed to £9000. I get almost this much from student finance, so my working is additional money for bills etc. If I can help any more then just let me know

[Molio]

peteneras you're imputing to me things which I haven't said or even implied and which I don't think. You seem very angry. There's a useful article in the September issue of the Student BMJ which you might like to read, about different med schools. BeckAndCall has it absolutely right: the various med schools have different strengths. Oxford and Cambridge tend to produce far more doctors going into research and specialties than elsewhere: their entrance assessment will be geared to selecting students appropriate for those things. I think there's no merit whatsoever quibbling about the UKCAT/ BMAT - after all some highly regarded schools don't use either :) Alreadytaken has pointed out that the Cambridge clinical school has been expanded to allow for all Cambridge students to stay on and train there. The Oxford school is currently slightly too small and the places get offered to most but not all, with the top students being offered the places and those who haven't done quite so well (a relatively small number) tend to go down to London. Of course Oxford and Cambridge students have also had the option of applying to the other place for the clinical years, an option which London students don't have. I'm not sure it's worth commenting on the issue about students being asked to leave because clearly if there are too many, the exam marking system will set the pass mark at an appropriate level to achieve the numbers required . I still think extreme caution should be the order of the day with any schools with a 'reputation'.

BeckAndCall's point is the only one of any moment though really: In 2013 there were 84,395 applications to preclinical medicine and only 7515 applicants were offered a place. Clearly appl;icants should identify the different character of med schools and play to their own strengths!

[Needmoresleep]

I have been reading with interest as DD wants to apply for medicine. No experience but some of arguments on this thread don't chime with what I have heard elsewhere.

1. DD does not want to apply to Oxbridge, even if she gets good enough AS grades. She wants to be a hands on Doctor, quite possibly a GP. She is not interested in research. She does not want to take six years to qualify when she could be finished in five. Like schools, I assume that the best course is not always the most academic, but the one which suits a student best.
   

1. We knew two sure-fire (if there is such a thing) Oxbridge medical candidates last year. Interestingly both changed their minds and decided to apply to Oxford, because Cambridge no longer offers the option of clinical training in London.
   

1. Advice DD was given by a leading medical researcher at a top London hospital is if your interest is in academic medicine and research, think carefully about whether you need to qualify as a doctor, or whether you can get to where you want to be through another route. Apparently there are plenty of very bright doctors who are itching to focus on research and who would have been better off following an academic bio-medical route.

[peteneras]

”I have no interest in any argument at all or indeed in any comparison of different med schools. . . I'm perplexed at the aggression which some of these threads engender. People are supposed to be offering advice to the next generation, not competing about whether one school is 'better'”

Quite frankly Molio, I find this terribly disingenuous. All throughout the thread I see nothing but stealth claims by you that Oxbridge is the be all and the end all (to you) and yet you claim you’re not competing whether one school is ‘better’.

Well, listen to this:

”All medics at both universities [Oxbridge] are of an exceptionally high standard”
Which goes to say medics at all other universities are dummies with low standard. May I remind you of the two ‘dummy’ candidates rejected by Birmingham but were quickly snapped up by Oxbridge?

”They [Oxbridge] certainly don't appear to be cavalier in who they accept or don't, and invest a lot of resources in the process”.
This is nothing short of an affront to the rest of the medical schools who would appear to be cavalier in their selection processes and for not investing much resources.

”Oxford and Cambridge have far higher entry standards in terms of raw grades, both use the rigorous BMAT and both have interview sessions which extend for far longer than either KCL and Birmingham, in which both academic ability and suitability for a medical career are scrutinised fully”

The rigorous BMAT? It is strange that almost 90% of all UK medical schools don’t believe in it but opted for the more appropriate UKCAT instead. Surely the UKCAT is a more superior tool to gauge the academic ability and suitability of a potential medic that even traditional BMAT schools like Imperial College and even Oxford are adopting it for their graduate entrants!

I also think it is outrages to accuse some schools to treat some highly able students as ‘cannon fodder’. You have taken on yourself to assume that these schools have deliberately taken on more students on ‘false pretences’ then they could actually cope. There is no evidence whatsoever. As far as I can see, these students failed to reach a certain standard (high) set by the school(s) in their exams and are therefore excluded.

I have no qualms about this. For the future patients, it’s a matter of life and death!

And yet, many more have reached and exceeded the required standard and therefore passed! All exam scripts bear only the candidate’s number and not their name therefore, discounting any discrimination or favouritism on the examiner’s part.

On the contrary, if any school(s) had deliberately taken on more students than they could cope, then it’s Oxbridge. They have had to send students to London in the vital later stages of their training. Effectively, they are trained by London so Oxbridge is not the be all and end all!

By and large, whichever medical school you go to, you’d be learning your skills from the doctors, consultants, specialists and other medical professionals based in the (teaching) hospitals situated at your school. As to how good they are and no matter what others may argue, well, at the end of the day the test of the pudding is in the eating.

[Molio]

BeckandCall it's not an argument, rather a soliloquy on peteneras's part :) I have no interest in any argument at all or indeed in any comparison of different med schools. I purely offered two small bits of advice about the aspects of admissions that I'm familiar with. One, that Cambridge has twice as many applicants as Oxford for the same number of places and two, that some schools have a tendency to take on more students than they can train through to the end.

I do think it very, very unfair if a school has a policy which leaves highly able students adrift after two years, but I don't think it follows in any way that schools such as Oxford and Cambridge who make offers less freely and who have a negligible fail rate have less able students. That's very skewed logic! In the same way one can't say Oxford and Cambridge must be less good schools than Birmingham. Leeds etc because some applicants successful at Oxford and Cambridge were rejected by Birmingham, Leeds etc. Some of those schools know an Oxbridge dead cert when they see it and will choose not to waste a place. You're quite right about the different schools Beck, they are different and the difference is evident when you look at the career paths Oxbridge medics tend to follow compared to other schools, so clearly they look for different things - far less Oxbridge medics become GPs, they tend to possess other skills, also much needed by the medical world, obviously. I'm perplexed at the aggression which some of these threads engender. People are supposed to be offering advice to the next generation, not competing about whether one school is 'better' (usually associated with where their own child got a place, or didn't). As you point out, the schools are different because there are different needs to be met.

[BeckAndCall]

At the risk of wandering into a private argument, peternas and molio are not comparing like with like..... oxford and Cambridge medical schools have a different style from the other medical schools - much less hands on and patient contact for the pre clin years. So they are looking for different types of students.... Its not at all unusual for a student to get accepted by Cambridge but to simultaneously be rejected by Birmingham, Leeds etc... (based on my sample of 2 schools over the last 5 years...)

[peteneras]

” Oxford and Cambridge have far higher entry standards in terms of raw grades . . .

But it actually seems far more likely an explanation that KCL and Birmingham are far looser in their entry selection”

If not for the fact that I personally know one or two candidates in very recent years who had been rejected by Birmingham and one had gone to Cambridge and the other to Oxford, I would have believed you, molio.

[peteneras]

I’ve seen the marks last year of all the students from a particular year group of one of the schools you mentioned earlier, paying particular attention to the 15% of the ones who failed. In most cases, they had failed on one particular paper/test by one or two marks (at most, maybe three or four marks) BUT had otherwise scored tremendously in all the other papers scoring on average in the high 80’s but still registered a fail overall. This looks brutal to me but am consoled with the knowledge that those who passed would have gone on to make super doctors which is what we all want.

[Molio]

AllMimsy I very much doubt that if you take KCL and Birmingham on the one hand and Oxford and Cambridge on the other, that it's likely that the first two have vastly superior methods of selection over the latter! It would interesting to hear a purported justification: Oxford and Cambridge have far higher entry standards in terms of raw grades, both use the rigorous BMAT and both have interview sessions which extend for far longer than either KCL and Birmingham, in which both academic ability and suitability for a medical career are scrutinised fully. That's not to say that those who get places at KCL and Birmingham aren't very able - they will be.

But it actually seems far more likely an explanation that KCL and Birmingham are far looser in their entry selection, which is why they need to weed out. That said, it's very harsh on the able students that do get the boot - it would be fairer not to let them in on false pretences.

[AllMimsyWereTheBorogoves]

What I understand P to be saying is that some medical schools fail lots of students along the way and some get most of them through. One explanation for the latter is that they are doing better at selection and teaching/mentoring. Another is that they should fail more and that KCL/Brum have got it right.

[Molio]

Sorry, peteneras, I meant that what you said about students getting kicked out isn't really relevant to Oxbridge medics, as so very few leave, or are asked to. I

[Molio]

I can't fathom the answer peteneras. That's why I asked you if you could hazard a guess. To me, it doesn't make sense.

I offered advice about Oxford and Cambridge only because those are the two I know best. Hearsay is good, but only up to a point!

[peteneras]

Perhaps I understand it too well to ask the (good) question that you have conveniently evaded to answer, molio. At the risk of repeating myself, my question is, “Why would medical schools want to do this?”

” I can't quite see what the relevance is to Oxbridge medics though. . .”

Well, to be honest, neither could I as this thread specifically asked for anyone applying for Medicine or Dentistry but you seem to be talking of nothing else except Oxford and Cambridge right from your very first post and continuing right throughout.

[Molio]

Your question is a good one peteneras. Is your understanding the same, that some schools do take on more students than they can process through the final years? These are the two who seem to have a reputation and in the case of one, it seems to be a reputation of longstanding.

I can't quite see what the relevance is to Oxbridge medics though . Those two universities have a record of very low numbers of students across all subjects dropping out or being sent down, which one can only assume is due to their much higher levels of scrutiny and assessment at entry level. They certainly don't appear to be cavalier in who they accept or don't, and invest a lot of resources in the process.

I completely agree that it's shocking that highly able students sign up to schools in the expectation of being fairly treated, and are treated as cannon fodder instead. Perhaps I'm getting this wrong, but if any schools are getting rid of large numbers of a cohort along the way, it's got to be wrong.

[peteneras]

”I do think a useful discussion could focus on what people know about the unis which take on too many students, then spit them out after first year or subsequent exams. Highly able students thrilled to get a place but being spat out with an uncertain future is a major danger area. I'm aware of two unis which do this, but are there more? . . . My understanding is that Birmingham and KCL have a reputation for this.”

My question is, “Why would medical schools want to do this?”

Do they have nothing else better to do than to waste everybody’s time (not to mention expenses), the students, their parents, admission tutors, hospital consultants, UCAS and not least the universities themselves?

You have said so yourself, these are highly able students (naturally thrilled to get a place in this extremely difficult process with very limited places) and to all intents and purposes, initially good enough to enter medical school with a view to qualifying as a doctor. The fact that some of them are being spat out along the way by these medical schools only tells me that these schools produce the ultimate super-class doctors at the end of the process! Given the choice, I’d sooner be treated by these doctors then ones from Oxbridge.

[Molio]

lougle I really, really hope you succeed but I wouldn't feel confident to offer advice. Very best of luck.

[lougle]

Do you have any advice for a prospective Graduate Entry Medicine Course applicant?

My background:
-Bombed A-levels due to personal circumstance
-Went to University and got a high 2.1
-From there went to another University and did a post-grad nursing qualification.
-Worked as a nurse in neurosurgery (theatres), NICU, Outpatients(Diabetes, breast cancer diagnostic clinics & MDT clinics, colorectal and general surgical).
Stopped working as a nurse 7 years ago (children).

I am doing my Chemistry A-level this year. I'm thinking of getting my nursing PIN back next year (both for recent NHS experience and for being able to earn some money to afford GEM).

I have spent my time out of work doing voluntary work:
-Governor at two schools
-Sit on Select Committee for Children and Young people
-Have done voluntary work in two schools
-Sit on admission appeal panels for my LA

All of these roles require team-work, responsibility, etc.

Obviously I'm very aware that GEM is extremely competitive. Also, I'm only able to apply to one SoM because of my family situation (I have a child with SN at special school and support my parents - I can't move house). So I need to present a really strong application to succeed.

There's also the small matter of a minimum 3000 score on the UKCAT....

[Molio]

I think it would be very hard to sustain the argument that Cambridge has a higher calibre of applicant for medicine, since there is no evidence whatsoever to show it. All medics at both universities are of an exceptionally high standard, but it may be useful for prospective applicants to know that there are almost twice the number to beat off at Oxford. The very simple corollary is that Oxford is harder to get into, but that in no way implies Cambridge is easy!

There are not enough places for all Oxford medics to stay on for the clinical years; there is a selection process in the final undergraduate year, based on performance in the previous years.

Glad to be of help Mindgone :) Very happy to answer any questions if I can.

[alreadytaken]

I'm not interested in childish competitive parenting, Molio, only in the information you are providing, which I think gives the wrong impression to potential applicants. The standard of applicants at Oxford and Cambridge is different. Both get applicants from those expecting to get high grades but Oxford gets more applicants from candidates who achieve lower grades. I could find published overall figures easily but the picture for medical applicants shows a broadly similar picture.

There are more medicine places at Cambridge but more excellent candidates trying to take those places. Personally I wouldn't describe that as "less competitive". However if students are realistically expecting to get AAA* at one sitting then the chance of admission at Cambridge is higher. If you restrict your comments to that group then yes, Cambridge is "less competitive".

Oxford places more emphasis on GSCEs, Cambridge on AS. Candidates with less than perfect GCSEs might do better applying to Cambridge.

From this year Cambridge medics have to stay in Cambridge for the clinical years and can no longer apply to other medical schools. Those applying to Oxford this year would still be able to move (usually to London, sometimes Cambridge). The intercalated degree in Cambridge can be done in almost any subject that will take you (not usually languages), Oxford is more restricted. Cambridge does dissection, Oxford prosecution. Cambridge is colder in winter. I suggest students look very hard at the course and where they want to live.

[Mindgone]

Thanks for that Molio, thankfully, he's not interested in either of these two!

[Molio]

It's not on websites as a rule. My understanding is that Birmingham and KCL have a reputation for this. Birmingham says it 'gets it's numbers right', but that appears to be by shedding students along the way. Of course Birmingham and KCL admissions tutors are very welcome to prove me wrong!

[Mindgone]

Molio, how does one find out this information? And would you be willing to share the two you know of? DS is about to apply, and this information may help his decision making.

[Molio]

. All credit sallysparrow.

I do think a useful discussion could focus on what people know about the unis which take on too many students, then spit them out after first year or subsequent exams. Highly able students thrilled to get a place but being spat out with an uncertain future is a major danger area. I'm aware of two unis which do this, but are there more?

[YetAnotherHelenMumsnet]

Hi all, this is a very useful thread but unfortunately the OP has been banned for persistent spamming. We will leave the thread, but don't expect to hear any more from Mummywithquestions.