Does anyone have experience/knowledge of PhDs?

[RunRabbit]

I really want to do a PhD.

I got a 2:1 in my Psychology degree 2 years ago. I know I want my research to be in the child development area but cannot think of a specific area/question to do my proposal on.

I'm happy to self-fund but I feel like I've already wasted 2 years hemming and hawing over this.

I bought some books on PhDs but they're more about what PhDs are about, how to write them up etc. None of them talk about coming up with a proposal question.

How do I choose a specific area, and come up with an original question?

[Acinonyx]

(Hi LRD). I also had a 2.1 undergrad then much later did a masters, and on the strength of that (distinction) got PhD funding. I do agree that you need to want to do it partly just to do it - because job prospects are dire. If you have family, then you may not be able to move for a job and that is a very big disadvantage indeed. I'm interdisciplinary - one of those disciplines is psychology. Psychology is a massively oversubscribe field and you should pick your area carefully to be as competitive as possible.

One of the things most sought after is the ability to attract funding - so self-funded PhDs can be at a disadvantage. That can depend on the field - but psychology funding is not that scarce (compared to some arts and humanities) that self-funding is entirely respectable.

If you just want to do it for fun - sure - go straight to a self-funded PhD. If you want a career - do a masters at the best uni you can and then do a funded PhD. That's my tuppence hapenny.

I don't have a FT academic job - I teach/write PT. I don't regret doing PhD which I do actually use for work - but I did take a massive pay cut to go this route.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

Thanks fair.

Just to pick up on what janine says about people who're doing temp contracts etc. who don't have children - this is a subject I do tend to harp on about, but academia is scary in terms of when you have children. There is a thread in MN at the moment with someone explaining that it would be awful if a lowly postdoc took on a 'million pound research project' then went off on maternity leave. Of course, all postdocs are parts of expensive projects, and as fair says, you might do two or three of them. So there is, I think, a culture of expectation that you are utterly dedicated and spend time feeling very thankful.

If I could go back and do a two-year MPhil like some of my peers, I would do it like a shot - that's how much I want to cram in as many years as possible where I'm building up my skills and knowledge, before hitting the 'argh I must get a job ... and another job ... and another one' stage.

Sorry, I know it sounds horribly negative - but no-one said this stuff to me and I wish they had.

[FairPhyllis]

so the 'brilliant' PhD students who fail to secure academic posts on completion, what kind of work do they end up doing? How transferable are Hums or SocSci doctorates?

They apply for teaching, normal graduate schemes, public sector jobs like civil service or uni admin jobs, or private companies where their skills or background are useful. Only one of my PhD intake of 7 has got an academic job, and that was largely because she happened to be in the right place at the right time. You can do anything a BA graduate can do - there are no age restrictions on most graduate schemes, and if you have teaching experience that can be helpful because it is professional experience. It is increasingly common for PhDs to switch careers now, so there doesn't seem to be any prejudice against you for being "overqualified".

I am finishing this year and I am 32.

OP if you are set on this (and to be honest you do sound very naive about the reality of academia) I would say take another year to figure out your game plan, and do a Masters at a top institution and do your best to get a distinction. If you don't you won't get PhD funding with a 2:1 (I had a 2:1 btw so I know what I am talking about). If you don't get PhD funding, there is basically no point if this is all about getting a job in academia, as you will be looked at with suspicion when it comes to getting jobs.

And be prepared to spend years doing post-docs and temporary contracts. In my field it is now the norm to do two 2-3 year post-docs before you can get a permanent position. In sciences it is more like 3 post-docs now. Think about how old you'll be at the end of it all. Think about what the pay is actually like at the end of it all.

And I know you are getting embarrassed about this but massive congrats LRD

[MaddAddam]

I'm a Psychology academic and supervise Ph.D. students. Maybe it's just my institution but I thought the rules had changed recently and you had to have a Msc to be accepted onto a Ph.D. now. That's what I was hearing at a meeting just today.

In Psychology (at my current university but elsewhere too) they tend to like a Msc in Research Methods, for preference, rather than a more general Masters. Then you can use that time to firm up a research area, talk to potential supervisors, come up with a proposal and research question.

It seems like an extra year but in practice, most people didn't finish their Ph.D.s in 3 years so the research methods Msc year isn't necessarily an extra year as you can hit the ground running for the Ph.D.

[Stanislav]

Thank you for the responses, very interesting.

[creamteas]

so the 'brilliant' PhD students who fail to secure academic posts on completion, what kind of work do they end up doing? How transferable are Hums or SocSci doctorates?

I would say about 75% of the people who were on a social science PhD programme at roughly the same as me either didn't get or didn't want an academic career.

They are doing a whole range of things now, but the two most common jobs are either in university administration or connected to research/policy in other places (charities, think tanks, private research companies etc).

[JanineStHubbins]

Most of the ones I know are still scrabbling around on part-time or temporary contracts, sometimes teaching in 2 or 3 unis at once, all the while trying to keep up with research and publications, and usually not being paid in the summer. Most of them manage to keep their head just above water, but none have any children.

One I know who got fed up after more than 10 years of this entered the civil service.

[LEMmingaround]

I would second doing a masters first, if you can - I went straight to my PhD so spent the first year faffing about learning how to do research. I really wish i did a masters first - a few of my friends did this, either a taught masters or full research. When they went on to do their PhDs they hit to floor running. Doing a masters (from what i could see) is really good preparation because you are under more time pressure - it is quite easy to coast for the first year and you are finding your feet. A masters chucks you in at the deep end and you don't have time to faff. My research area was science so i did 3 years in the lab and a year to write up. Writing up was HARD!

[Stanislav]

(Sorry for the thread hijack RunRabbit...) so the 'brilliant' PhD students who fail to secure academic posts on completion, what kind of work do they end up doing? How transferable are Hums or SocSci doctorates?

[JanineStHubbins]

I was 24 when I started my PhD, 26 (almost 27!) when I finished. 31 now.

[PiratePanda]

I supervise PhD students, South-East, Russell Group, Humanities.

We don't accept people onto the PhD without an MA; full stop, end of story. Haven't done for at least ten years. So you're almost certainly goinh to have to do one -- and they're bloody expensive now, AND there's little to no funding.

I would advise doing a part-time Masters to spread the cost, at the department with the best research reputation you can get into. That will help you narrow down a PhD topic and help you identify the right supervisor.

But don't do it because you want a job in academia; even the most brilliant PhD students with publications up to their elbows are struggling to get jobs.

25 when I started, 29 when I finished, 39 now.

[ProfondoRosso]

I started my BA at 18, my masters at 23 and my PhD at 24 (I'm 28 now, and nearly done. It would have been 3 years last October, but y'know...)

[Honsandrevels]

I did a PhD without a masters. I was a research assistant for 2 years though so had relevant experience. I've been employed as a researcher every since so not having a masters doesn't seem to have been an obstacle.

I was 24 when I started, 28 when completed.

[MrsBright]

With kids? Good point is you can near-enough plan your own life (unlike an MA when you cant). Both my (male) supervisors have young kids so are tolerant of family demands (to a point). Down sides - Dept totally older male dominated so 'family friendly' it is not - most research seminars/interesting presentations scheduled for 4pm or evenings - hopeless when you've got school aged kids or live miles away. As a female I am expected to either flirt like crazy in order to advance my career (can't be arsed with that rubbish and in any case, what career?) or pretend I'm dim and need male help all the time (refuse to that either). I tend to much about during the mornings (brain not awake) and write properly in the afternoon until kids at home, then try and do some more after 8pm though that often doesnt happen.

[MrsBright]

Undergrad (2i) at 30, did my Masters (Distinction/ESRC studentship/prizes etc) at 35, then had a family. PG Dip distance learning (mid-kids) to slightly switch subjects. Now 50, AHRC plus competitive overseas research award from City Guild to do PhD at mega-RG Uni. Now in final stretch to get submitted before summer hols.

[creamteas]

Stanislav Doing my PhD was no different from working for me.

So I used wrap-around care for school age and F/T nursery for little ones. Worked hard all day, with them from 5 till bed time, then work again in the evenings when they were asleep.

[Stanislav]

Those of you doing PhDs with kids, how do you manage? I am interested (Social Sciences) but wonder how I could make it work

[creamteas]

I started my BA 28, Masters at 31 and my PhD at 33.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

25 when I started, 29 now.

[RunRabbit]

How old was everyone, when you did your PhD? If you don't mind me asking

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

*list of reasons.

I can spell, honest not.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

Thanks. It's getting embarrassing now, I've been 'nearly finished' for ages.

And OP, that is a big thing. I got a 2:1 too, so I'm not a snob about it, but it did mean I had to really prove myself. People do care. If you did get onto a PhD course without a Masters, which I know you sometimes can, in four years time you'd be applying for jobs. And on your CV, your last result would be a 2:1 at undergraduate.

If you could bump that up by, say, a distinction at your masters plus funding for a PhD (you get kudos for getting the funding), you'll look a lot better.

I know you're saying it's plan B and I know we're all saying the same thing, it's just the list of reason for it are so long, especially if you want a career in academia. If you didn't, a PhD on its own might well work fine, but if you want to get a job you're shooting yourself in the foot if you make your CV much less impressive than anyone else's. And the thing is, if you can do a PhD, you ought to be able to get a really good masters.

[UptheChimney]

And HUGE CONGRATULATIONS to LRD.

[UptheChimney]

How do you work out which Universities are 'worth going to'?

See, this question suggests to me that you're not yet ready to do a PhD. I think you need to look for a good Masters programme which will orient you towards the kind of research/professional knowledge and approach which will help you find the best place to do the Doctoral research you want to do.

• As someone says upthread, look at the RAE results -- but these are a snapshot of research activity from 2007, so you need to cross check against current Departmental activities.
  
  
• Doctoral funding is now organised via the Research Councils in collaborative "Doctoral Training Partnerships" or Doctoral Training Centres. Not all universities belong to these, as not all universities are research-intensive enough. So being part of a PhD training consortium is a sign of a place worth doing research at.
  
  
• What research work are you reading/have read for your UG degree? Whose work are you interested in? Who is doing this sort of work in a UK university (I'm assuming you're based in the UK) now?
  
  
• Read the THE and the Guardian HE supplement every week. Look for advertisements for studentships on other people's big research projects. Aim to become part of a larger research team: you'll have access to a lot more resources & opportunities.
  
  
• Ask your personal tutor in your current degree. Have you been to your university's information days about PG study? Go to other university's PG Open Days. Talk to people in the area in which you want to research. Talk to current PGs in the Department in which you did your degree.
  
  Other advice: Start saving. Without a First you're likely to have to self-fund. You need a Distinction (or Merit at the very least) in a Masters to be in the ball park for Doctoral funding.
  
  And if you want an academic career, as others say, you'll need to be prepared for the long haul. Just "wanting it" is not enough -- you need to be prepared to do a 1 year Masters, 3-4 years of a PhD, and some sort of Post-doc work for at least 2 years before you are in a position to be competitive for an academic post. I have a very talented junior colleague who did various post-doc roles for about 6 years before he was appointed to a permanent postat a decent (ie research-led) university.

[MrsBright]

Getting the networks etc is VERY hard work if you have anything like a partner/family. All the (optional) 'research community' stuff is in the evening or late afternoon (school pick-up time) and since the Dept is run by blokes with compliant wives they don't 'get' why this is an issue.

And a career in academia? If thats you reason for doing a PhD then stop right there. There are a tiny number of posts - and non-one is appointed to a lectureship straight out from a PhD. Best friend (acknowledged as best doctoral student in years) is still slogging through casual teaching hours and badly paid bits of research for academics whilst struggling with baby and partner with PND. He knows it'll be YEARS before he gets a teaching post and it wont be at that Uni to start with (far too grand). He's already 35 so is now wondering if the entire circus is actually worth it. Especially since junior teaching jobs involve being on all the crappy academic/management committees that no-one else will do any more, on top of a full teaching week, and evening meetings. Do a Masters and then a PhD but do it for something for a bit more thought out/realistic than 'a career in academia'.