Teachers trying to get DD to change her Uni choice

[amumthatcares]

Some of you may recall my previous threads about the worry I had over DD's uni choice (between a very good one and a much poorer one). She needed ABB grades for both but in the end opted for the better one as her firm and the other as her insurance = very happy mummy

She re-sat her English Lang earlier in the year as she had got a C at AS. She managed to get it up to an A, which is some achievement and = very proud mummy .

Having upped this grade, a small group of teachers have pulled her to one side and are now telling her she should take a gap year and apply to one of the RG uni's next year, telling her the Uni she has firmed (16th in the new league tables) is not 'all that' in so many words - even thought it's the leading Uni for the subject she wants to do!! DD has decided to stick with her choice but I feel very cross about this. I think they are wrong to put down a perfectly good performing Uni or am I overreacting? I think it has more to do with their success than my DD's.

[CounselorTroi]

who WOULDN'T want to go to a uni who found a king in a car park :)

[unlucky83]

I studied a science subject at one of the best unis as an undergraduate and back up what magrats said about research universities
Most researchers need to fund their research with grants so need to do that well in a very competitive environment. Teaching undergraduates is an inconvenience - doesn't help their careers...
Worse lecture series we had was given by a rising star - a young professor ...handout a jumble of photocopied images in no particular order - put one up and talked about it and by the time we had found it had moved onto the next one...obviously couldn't care less ...previous year no-one had answered his questions in the exam -and no-one did that year (I naively thought that should show him what a bad teacher he was -it was so bad I complained - he had to do a tutorial and whole class turned up to it! -confidence of being a mature student I guess...)
Later I realised what I think he was doing (after talking to someone who organised the exams where I did my postgrad)- 'teach' your subject badly, make your exam questions hard and you have less marking (if any) to do - less time away from your research...
Less 'prestigious' universities that care more about their students might be a better choice ...
The only thing i would say about a course which is so specific -look at what weighting etc is given to each area -can you do anything else with it? Not only a hard field to get into - but when she actually starts doing the job she might hate it ...not be what she expected at all ...and might feel a bit stuck!

[PiratePanda]

Speaking as an academic in a much "higher ranked" and RG university: There is absolutely nothing wrong with the University of Leicester. It's a great choice, and the city itself is fab. Tell your daughter to stick to her guns and tell her teachers to wind their necks in!

[creamteas]

Some schools are terrible in the way they try to manipulate DC for the schools benefit.

A couple of years ago, I was one of the speakers at a UCAS day at a well known private school. In the Q&A, one of the students asked what they should do if they weren't really sure what to study at university. My reply was to focus on getting good A levels and to apply to uni when they knew what they wanted to do.

This position was immediately dismissed, and the school made it clear that it was not acceptable for them to not apply. I have not been asked back . Clearly, it was better for the school to be able to report 100% university entrance than for their students to be on the right course for them.

I have also had numerous conversations in which students report being advised that it is better to compromise on the subject to be studied than the university. These are usually in the context of them either failing their first year or being so unhappy they want to change subject.

[Copthallresident]

amumthatcares Over thirty years ago I was called into the Headmistresses study and given a stern dressing down about my uni choices and my determination to study Social History, which was regarded as soft and lacking rigor. I stuck to my guns, thoroughly enjoyed my uni course, had a chance to be taught by EP Thomson and other historians who were leading the study of History as everyone's story, and not just that of powerful white men, and most importantly because I enjoyed my subject I did very well. That enabled me to access a career and now I am back studying History. Now that is how History is taught in most universities, even if Gove wants to turn the clock back in schools. I hope your daughter's choice is similarly successful.

[amumthatcares]

Thank you all for your great comments.

Magrat It sounds like the OP's DD has looked very carefully at what is important to her and made a very well researched decision. She is then being persuaded away from that based on perceptions of "better" or "top" universities which are not based on her subject choice etc, but purely on the basis of, "oh it's OK, but not RG". RG is not a measure of quality I think that sums it up perfectly

Wishiwas Thank you so much for the offer to PM, it's lovely to have someone with first-hand experience - expect a PM in the not too distant future ;)

I would just add that I do think the teachers motives were the reflection on the school, rather than my DD's success. When she started that school (a very well respected and much sought after school), she had the highest CAT scores they had ever had by any student and from that moment on they have spouted Oxbridge to us many, many, many times...so maybe they feel my DD has let them down! I would actually like to go there and punch them on the nose tell them myself why Leicester and the Criminiology dept is so right for my DD. Like Happymum 's DD, this is something she has wanted to do since she was 14 and has never wavered from it and doing the crime modules in A level Sociology and Psychology have only cemented her decision.

[Wishiwasanheiress]

In my addmitedly personal experience teachers at A level were very self serving to THEIR own school. Not the young adult concerned. They wished to show x number went to Oxbridge etc not which courses and which Uni's served the best course because quite simply that cannot be shown in a league table.

Also ALevel teachers had naff all clue about university in its present form. They were when I went outdated and biased in opinions to when they attended. It was extremely depressing talking to them. They either sniffed at your choices or worse directed you to the careers person. The careers specialist at our a level college didn't know my course existed. Didn't know which Uni's did it. Didn't know anything about further employment in related fields and didn't appear to know anything outside conventional routes, eg medicine.

If she has (and by the sounds of it she does) the slightest bit of nous she will smile, nod and ignore them. Mine was a smaller department but I managed to make friends (and take minor subjects in some of these) medicine, law, languages, science, the space department, humanities and obviously the union/library areas. Oh and de Montfort (pe related areas). It also has excellent grad communication and after course support systems.

Then too the shopping and partying are pretty cool too. Sorry mum!

[Happymum22]

To add- the school were very supportive once she had explained her reasons, that it was well researched and not a brisk decision based on what looked exciting in the prospectus. At one point DD even described them as 'joining in her excitement' once they understood it.

[Happymum22]

I hope this doesn't out myself too much but I have experienced this and so will post. Not much advise, more just a similar story with a happy ending!

My DD was in a similar position. DD has been completely passionate about a certain subject (can't say as it is unique and don't want to 'out' myself) for years, since she was about 14. At her school most girls went onto RG courses doing very traditional subjects.

DD found a course which combined all her interests perfectly but it wasn't a traditional subject and no one from the school had ever done it before. When DD went with her list of unis which included 4 RGS and 1 non-RG combined with the course titles, she got a pretty negative reaction. They suggested two traditional subjects that they thought she would do instead and pushed that these would lead to better prospects. She stuck to her guns, but their attitude did get her down as she felt a little bit looked down upon and it made her doubt her decision.

She got 5 offers and picked out the uni which she liked the best (RG). On the open day she fell in love with this uni and it just was so right for her. It is also the top department in the country. While it is a RG, the school -even after her accepting the offer- constantly asked her if she was sure the course had enough career options and would be regarded highly enough. She got fed up and (this is my strong willed DD, my other DD would have crumbled!) took to the teachers a print out of the course graduate destinations, the literature on how up-and-coming her degree was and a print out of her personal statement (the particular teachers hadn't seen it) which showed how passionate she was about the course and how perfect it was for her. It did the trick and she is now graduated having loved the course to bits and working in her dream (v competitive to get a job at) company, working towards getting to the higher position which she has always wanted. She couldn't have made better decisions and says if she had done one of the traditional subjects recommended she would have never been as committed as she was to get her high 2:1 and get into her career path.

Leicester is a good uni and if she has the ambition she will get to where she wants. Help her be reassured it is brilliant and that she will do well - it is top in its field after all!

And yes it is awful her teachers are doing that to her, she needs to go in and show them just how great her course is and just how passionate she is.

[deleted203]

Are you the mum whose DD was considering the seaside town uni because she and her friends had met some lads and were having a great time partying? And thought how marvellous it would be to go there for 3 years, purely for the social life, rather than the uni she had originally decided on, which was better academically?

If so, I'm really pleased she picked the better choice for her - and I'd be fuming with the teachers trying to belittle it after you've managed to convince her (or she has decided) to go to the original and better one.

I remember your anguish at the time!

[Iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii]

Great post Magrat.

Sensible and factual.

[BeckAndCall]

Magrat, I think we are in danger of violently agreeing!

[MagratGarlik]

I too have had a 20 year HE career and recently left a senior academic position at a RG university. I also worked at another RG university before that. I know what the teaching quality can be like at some RG universities and I also know the attitudes of a not insignificant number of academics towards undergraduate teaching. I find the blind assumption that RG = quality to be naive. That is not to say all are bad, or all non-RG are not so good, just that RG is not about quality, it was set up as a political/lobbying group. In order to find out about the course which is right, you need to look not at which group the university belongs to, but at numerous different factors - including, yes, student satisfaction and teaching quality. Research activity of academics (a big focus of the RG) is pretty much irrelevant for undergraduates.

Teachers do not have any real insights into higher education apart from having been to university themselves and with all the best will in the world, are not necessarily the best placed to offer advice on suitable courses. The irony as well is that many students who do very well in the school system often end up at the universities whose teaching approach is diametrically opposed to that used at school. Consequently, I have seen many apparently straight A students come in to university, struggle and come out with worse quality degrees than if they had gone to institutions which were a better fit for them.

The league table results were given because several posters on this thread were saying "Leicester is not all that good" without any basis for saying that, particularly in the context of this particular course. The league table results were therefore used to show that regardless of the stick you use to measure, Leicester consistently comes out looking pretty good.

The fact that some posters write it off whilst coming up with nonsense such as "didn't it used to be Leicester Poly?" clearly demonstrate that comments about it not being particularly good are based on presumptions about where is "good" and are not based on actual knowledge.

[BeckAndCall]

Yes, the OP's DD has clearly researched it well but her teachers are suggesting she might aim higher. They know her abilities better than we do and they may be just RG biased or they may be pointing her away from a course that is not as good for her future as she thinks it is.

I work in HE, too - have done for 20 years - and I have a great distrust of league tables. And I don't work in a RG uni - I do not think they are intrisically better for everyone - all unis have their strengths including those maligned upthread.

My view is that the OPs DD should consider WHY her teachers are suggesting she looks elsewhere.

[MagratGarlik]

I think tbh you are missing my point, Beck, which is that the OP's DD has carefully researched what she wants from a course and come up with the one at Leicester, only to be told by others who have not made those comparisons that "it's not all that".

I gave the position in the league tables to show that despite what some posters have said about the university not being that great, it does very well in general terms as well as on her course specifically.

I also note that there are three posters on here who work in HE, all of whom have said the same thing - RG is not a quality indicator and Leicester is a well regarded university.

[BeckAndCall]

I think you missed my point, Magrat.

I know it's one of only a few that do criminology and I said earlier the comparator should be with ones that do straight psychology.

And my point on the league tables is that they are an amalgam of different indicators, some of which are important to one person and some to others. My point being, only an individual can decide what is important to them and look specifically at those measures. Eg a small department can score very highly by being very specialised in its research: but it may not have the depth of specialisms across its staff to cover the areas that YOU are interested in.

And you shouldn't look, in general, for a university's position in a league table because it may be that they are brilliant at chemistry biology and maths but is making up the numbers in, for example, history. If you want to do history, that's not the place for you, even if its in the top ten of good universities. You need to look at that subject specifically.

[MagratGarlik]

Beck, being subject specific, the OP has already said Leicester is the only university to have a dedicated criminology department at undergrad level.

Universities take the NSS scores very seriously btw ime and when looking for a university, don't you want a university where the previous students have been pleased with what was delivered to them, where the library is well stocked and where the graduates are employed in jobs they have been educated to do within 6 months of graduation? I would not be too happy with a course where previous students were unhappy, I couldn't get hold of relevant resources or I ended up unemployed at the end of it.

It sounds like the OP's DD has looked very carefully at what is important to her and made a very well researched decision. She is then being persuaded away from that based on perceptions of "better" or "top" universities which are not based on her subject choice etc, but purely on the basis of, "oh it's OK, but not RG". RG is not a measure of quality.

[frissonpink]

I'd tell her to go where the best social life was personally ;)

[Wishiwasanheiress]

Vote here for digby halls too ;)

[Wishiwasanheiress]

Oh and it's been loved by every city corporate firm I've worked at. Am shocked at some of the seriously out of date views on the Uni now I've read backwards!

[Wishiwasanheiress]

I am a grad of Leicester. It is beyond excellent as a Uni, halls, place to live.

Oh to do my time again. Seriously. I LOVED it.

Pm me if I can help. :)

[BeckAndCall]

Surely you need to be subject specific when using a 'best of' list?

A uni can be top for engineering and nowhere for anything else. Or a hundred other examples.

And many of the lists include student satisfaction scores as a criteria. And number of library books per head. And graduate destinations. What's important to YOU may not be what the list is based upon.

But the advice on psychology as a first degree, followed by PG criminology route would sound better if it were my DD.

[MagratGarlik]

On what are you basing this informed judgement, frisson?

Universities tend to be very keen on the lists when they are doing well in them btw.

[frissonpink]

Oops I stand corrected However, I would still say that Leicester isn't considered one of the 'big boys' (so to speak)

Those lists are a bit of a joke though really..I mean does anyone actually pay attention to them? Surrey University above Sheffield, Manchester and Nottingham? Really?!

[Habbibu]

Good lord. People do spout misinformed guff about HE. Leicester is 1994 gp, which again is a lobby group, but what most people don't realise is that membership of RG depends in part on volume of res income, which for most undergraduates is by the by. And volume doesn't mean that much about quality. If you look at per capita res income you get a v different picture.