Guest post: “Gender stereotypes hold us all back”

[MumsnetGuestPosts]

It’s that time of year again when large employers are reporting their gender pay gaps. This year we (unsurprisingly) find that 45% are reporting bigger gaps than they did last year. So what is going on? Undoubtedly, the fact that employers are not required to have an action plan in place is one of the issues. We have to focus on the action required and hold employers to account for that, rather than just requiring them to report the gap. But we also have to get behind the numbers and the regulation to address the underlying causes, and the elephant in the room is gender stereotyping. By that I mean the social norms and expectations that limit what women and men or boys and girls should do.

Take who does the caring, for example. We build our parental leave system around a 1950s model of family life. Yes, we have shared parental leave, but it is structured in a way that means fewer than 1 in 10 dads take it up because it is paid at too low a rate. It starts from the assumption that it’s the mother’s leave to give to him and not a dedicated entitlement for fathers. Pregnancy discrimination drives 54,000 working mothers out of their jobs each year. Many mothers find themselves trapped in low paid part-time work. Working mothers experience a 30% pay gap by the time their first child is 20. All of this is underpinned by the expectation that mothers should be at home caring for children and not in the workplace, and that fathers should work to provide for the family. You may think we have left all this behind, but Fawcett research suggests that we haven’t.

Another cause of the gender pay gap is occupational segregation. This is where we see men concentrated in some sectors or roles and women in others. Take childcare and teaching, for example: both are grossly underpaid and undervalued (because women do them) - just 2% of pre-school teachers are men. Take as another example engineering, where just 7% of apprentices are women; or physics where just 20% of A levels are taken by girls. This is after decades of trying to ‘encourage’ and ‘inspire’ young women into STEM subjects. Girls’ attainment at GCSE is equal to or better than boys, but at each subsequent stage girls fall away. By the time they graduate or complete their apprenticeships, there are just a handful left. So why isn’t it working?

The answer to all of this is the way society is straight-jacketing our children into harmful gender norms and stereotypes. Often, as parents, we do it unwittingly. Sometimes we are simply so bombarded by the ‘pinkification’ of life, as campaigners like Let Toys be Toys have so powerfully demonstrated. Sometimes we give in and think ‘What harm can it do really?’ (I have four children, so I understand how hard this is). But, as our research shows, the truth is that pushing children to conform to gender norms is indeed harmful. It’s gender norms which make us reward men who ask for a pay rise but regard women who do the same as ‘pushy’, or which treat women in leadership roles as ‘imposters’. It’s gender norms which create the expectation of visual perfection for girls and which contribute to one in five 14-year-olds self-harming. It’s gender norms which limit boys to be one version of masculine, and which reinforce and normalise aggression in boys from a young age.

It is tempting to feel helpless in the face of such an enormous problem. But evidence suggests that all is not lost. Research shows the wiring in our brains is soft, not hard. Professor Gina Rippon argues we can mould our ‘plastic brains’, even as adults. The truth is, though, that we have a better chance of change if we intervene early on. This is why Fawcett is launching an exciting new Commission on Gender Stereotypes in Early Childhood and we would love Mumsnet to be involved. We have to get to the underlying causes and make some fundamental changes to our education system, our parenting, and the commercial world too. Gender stereotypes hold us all back, but if we can change them, we can change the future.

You can read more about Fawcett’s Commission on Gender Stereotypes in Early Childhood here.

Sam Smethers will be returning to this post on the 1st of May to answer some questions

[TemporaryPermanent]

Any facts I can identify in Nyushka's posts appear to be incorrect, alongside the nonfactual emotional outpouring. I'm not an expert. Would the Fawcett society like to comment on these lengthy posts?

[TemporaryPermanent]

No I'm wrong - the fact about female sexed university leavers earning more is correct I believe. Nyushka, why would that be, if women naturally choose lower paid roles? What has gone wrong? Has Marxism become the dominant element among that generation, forcing naturally caring women who should be in nursing into the misery of business, financial services and engineering?

[Nyushka1]

You can disagree by all means if you don't believe women choose to go into more caring roles but the evidence would suggest otherwise.

That's why women dominate in jobs such as primary school teachers, nurses, secretaries and care workers by as much as 95%.

In general woman are more caring, compassionate and polite.

In general men are more avert to risk, less agreeable and more industrious than women.

This is based on emperical evidence it isn't my opinion.

Of course this doesn't mean that every man or woman will fall into that category but would explain the 'general differences' that can't just be ignored.

Unfortunately, traits which are generally female, being more caring, compassionate and agreeableness, don't predict success in the workplace.

Of course not all females are agreeable as clearly not all females are unsuccessful in their careers.

Success is based on risk taking, aggression and assertiveness, which happen to be traits seen in higher levels of men than woman.

None of this can be changed or has been the effect of socio-cultural construction, it is evolutionary biologically hardwired over centuries.

Also, and this is just an observation, but powerful men are deeply desired by women, and I don't mean tyrannical men who exert control , I mean competent successful masculine men. The only women who wouldn't desire men such as these often have difficulties in general.

None if what I've said is emotional it's just basic facts. As I've said if you're going to argue a case you have to use all the facts and state all the reasons. I can say for certain though that women do choose lower paid jobs, not because they're lower paid but because they're more suitable for the type of work. The wages are irrelevant in terms of choice of work and equality of opportunity. Nobodies holding women back.

Again if I could be given some examples of where people are held back and not given the same opportunity just because they're women I'd be happy to discuss this not least because I wouldn't agree with it myself.

If the fact that women now entering the workplace are making more than men isn't enough to persuade you it's a myth how far does it have to go?

[AssassinatedBeauty]

No one would argue that women do go into lower paid lower status "caring" jobs on average more than men. The discussion is about why. You say it is hard wired biologically. That is your opinion, not a "basic fact". Plenty of people would disagree with you.

Women might currently earn more than men for a short while at the start of their careers. It doesn't last long though and overall they earn less.

And again, how very convenient for men and terribly unfortunate for women that they just happen to always choose lower paid lower status work. Just the natural order of things that definitely can't be changed!

[Nyushka1]

Ok then, based on decades of clinical research by the world's leading clinical psychologists, and with nothing else to go on, then that is my opinion.

You seem to be suggesting that men are equally as kind to people as women are but then say they are the reason for this so called gap?

Are you saying men and women are the same then?

Is what we class as 'maternal instinct' just a myth?

If people disagree with what I've said, where do you disagree?

[Sashkin]

The only women who wouldn't desire men such as these often have difficulties in general. it's just basic facts.

Righty-ho. And I’d be fascinated to know what “clinical psychology research” has to say about that - do you really mean clinical psychology? Really? The study of mental illness from a psychological perspective? Or are you just saying “clinical” because it sounds more impressive? What has the gender paygap got to do with mental illness? Please post a few links from your decades of clinical research, as somebody with a PhD in a related area I’m very interested to see which specific papers you are referencing here.

[Azitii]

The only women who wouldn't desire men such as these often have difficulties in general.

Difficulties in what sense can you expand on this?

[Nyushka1]

By its definition, as to desire a man who is unsuccessful and incompetent with no outwardly masculine traits will generally be because of a need to dominate and exert control over him, control being is a poor indication of success in any relationship. Whether this is because a woman has has a bad experience with the opposite or for a different reason altogether it doesn't demonstrate the want for a healthy relationship.

As for clinical psychologists with a view of empathetital differences between the sexes. To have a Phd in clinical psychology and to believe anything else quite astounds me as to whether it is in fact true, but ok. There are plenty more but a few incl. Hoffmans;

1. PMCID:PMC5478130
   
   2). The development and validation of a scale to measure self-compassion
   Kristin D Neff
   Self and identity 2 (3), 223-250, 2003
   
   3)Sex differences in empathy and related behaviors.
   
   Martin L Hoffman
   
   Psychological bulletin 84 (4), 712, 1977

[Sashkin]

Neither of those papers are clinical psychology papers - have you read them? Or were they the top two results when you googled “empathy AND psychology”?

Clinical psychology is a term with a specific meaning. It’s regulated by the HPC.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinical_psychology

I am not disputing that psychological researchers have looked at empathy (although there is plenty to criticise about the use of self-report empathy scales if you want to get into an academic discussion). I’m arguing that that has nothing to do with clinical psychology, and you are trying to sound more impressive by misusing big words you clearly don’t understand.

[Kpo58]

I wish that all jobs were advised with their starting salary of X to Y depending on experience rather than having to negotiate on one which tends to disadvantage women as they tend to undervalue their worth.

[OrchidInTheSun]

Nyushka1 - I work in a company where there are no 'caring' roles. The number of female and male graduates employed each year is roughly equal. But the male grads progress up the career ladder faster, are consistently paid higher bonuses and get opportunities that aren't given to their female peers. By the time you reach senior management, there are no women. The pay gap is huge - about 70%.

It has nothing to do with girls being more caring and compassionate and a lot to do with men encouraging and favouring mini mes. See also POC.

[User7777]

Men and women are different. That is undeniable. Our bodies make us different and in part affect our behaviour. But whether men are more prone to risk taking, and women to caring can be explained through socialisation. If it was biological then all wo/men on all societies would be like that, but they arent. And in single sex schools girls wouldn't choose traditionally make subjects. Look at the studies that show how differently make and female kids are treated. From before they are even born!
But yes, men and women make different choices. However, men's choices are valued more. Men's jobs (think low paid jobs) are valued and paid more.
But the bigger issue is society's attitude to parents. Who is out who carries babies? Who is it who loses time from their career to look after babies? Who is it who works part time to care for children? Who is who stays at home as child care prevents them from returning to work? Who is it who makes up most of the single parent population?
In countries with better attitudes towards women and childcare (I'm looking at Iceland) there is better equity between sexes in work. And that goes partway towards explaining why women leave with better chances from University but don't go onto achieve that potential in later life.

[User7777]

Another couple of things.
'maternal instinct' isn't a thing. I didn't have any. It's something socialised into girls from a very young age. Which in turn leads to women doing the bulk of childcare, which holds them back.
And example of someone being held back because of their sex? I Was straight a student, first class degree, PhD. Made choices in early adulthood that were affected by my then husband being controlling. Up shot is, I had huge potential when I was a young adult. Now I'm a low paid single parent. Also, my closest friend is qualified to the eyeballs, has massive earning potential. Works in a low paid job because it fits around her caring responsibilities. I joke with hey that we are the very definition of the gender pay gap.

So please don't give me all the "it's biology" or "women make those choices", because actually it's the attitude of society towards women that actually affects women's choices.

[borntobequiet]

Agree that an organisation that thinks men who like wearing skirts and the colour pink can become women can have nothing sensible to say on “gender” stereotypes.
And it’s straitjacket, not straight jacket. Careless.

[Nyushka1]

It is the exact definition of clinical psychology which even by your standards from checking wiki is the integration of science, theory and clinical study to better the understanding of human development. How else do you think they gather information from people and put it into practice? It actually has a very broad meaning rather than a precise one and the HPC only governs the UK health care scene its not a body with any kind of recognition in terms of study validity and was hastily put together only a few years ago.

I'm not sure what your point is. Of course I googled them I don't sit with files of scientific literature to hand, the point was I knew they existed and could pull up any number, of course I haven't proof read cover to cover. The point is that no clinical psychologist (and I use that term correctly) worth their salt would dispute the differences between the two sexes.

You're easily impressed if you feel someone's trying to make themselves sound clever by using 'clinical' before psychologist.

Orchidinthesun

When you say that the pay gap between men and women is 70%, is that also the pay gap between junior and senior staff or, for example do two co-workers in equal positions get paid differently?

What opportunities is it that are only open for men? Have you asked why senior jobs are only open to men or does it say that on the advertisement?

I'm not ruling out discrimination or that it takes place, it obviously does. Just no where near at a level being currently pushed.

[Nyushka1]

User7777
How would equal pay have helped you better you situation?
I understand you being disappointed you didn't go as far as you could have but I don't think it can be blamed on gender stereotyping or pay gap. After all it was your choice to have children. All women are more vulnerable after having kids that is unfortunate biology and a position to be expected. Having certain traits doesn't mean everybody will always have the same but simply that it can be considered normal based on the fact they will be shared by most people.
How else could it possibly be explained why women and men choose the same jobs consistently where ever you go. Iceland haven't got it any better than most it's just made to look a certain way by legalising equal pay. Now that is closing the gap, on communism. 1 company restructured and made sure 50/50 split in all sectors of work. But that meant that with the engineers the women were way under qualified compared to the men because being a free society far less women had chosen to train as engineers.

If companies didn't want to pay equally all they had to do was change the job title.

[User7777]

Eh? I don't understand your question.
It was my choice to have a child. It wasn't my choice to become a single parent with sole custody and caring responsibilities. This limits my earning potential. Whereas it doesn't limit his absent dad's. We are both parents, but in my situation (and quite a lot of other single parent families), it's the female who pays the literal price. And that imo is one reason why the wage gap exists. Its a penalty for being the carer, whether that's children or other family. That vulnerability of parenthood isn't 'to be expected', if the caring roles were better shared. Women don't make their choices in a vacuum.

[User7777]

You say free society, but you aren't willing to see how different roles are socialised into different sexes. Look at the differences in kids clothes, characters on Tv etc, the higher value of men's sports, period poverty, male on female violence, even female infanticide in other countries. All of these things are malleable, not innate.

[CallMeWoman]

How can initiatives to limit gender sterotyping in early childhood work alongside positive affirmation and puberty blockers for those who already chose non sterotypical activities.

Indeed.

Fawcett Society has rendered itself obsolete imo.

[MIdgebabe]

Actually women and men DONT choose the same jobs everywhere. It is culture dependent. Simple example, in the 40’s and 50’s computer programmers were predominantly women. Today, I think it’s Barbados where things related to physics are dominated heavily by women.

It seems that autistic girls are under diagnosed because of the additional social training they receive as girls meaning they can fit in better. The strength of that training could easily account for the caring roles that women tend to take.

[Nyushka1]

Of course it's to be expected by anyone whos willing to take responsibility for their actions. It may not have been a good choice but you chose him as the dad for your child. If gender stereotyping wasn't around this wouldn't suddenly mean that any woman could just have a baby and then hand it off to the dad job done.

A change in stereotyping wouldn't have, nor can it take away the responsibility of your actions. After all nothing was stopping you from giving the child up for adoption in that case.

The fact woman carry babies isn't stereotyping, it's a fact and a barrier to overcome if and when you decide to have kids. What could 'society' have done that would have changed your outcome? If your partner was abusive people don't normally change so it would be likely you would be in the same position.

[AssassinatedBeauty]

"What could 'society' have done that would have changed your outcome?"

So many things that are very easy to think of and which the Fawcett society have probably reams of information about.

[MrsPear]

The paygap will never close for biological women. In fact the trans advancement will make things worse and this is being encouraged by the Fawcett Society.

[Nyushka1]

User7777
How is the fact that differences are shown on TV a bad thing. In the real world we've already established men and woman are different.
Mens views aren't considered more or better than women's. If male sports are paid more that's prob because of more interest being predominantly men who typically like to 'watch the footy' so higher ads revenues. Men are generally better at sport, can run faster, jump higher and lift heavier.
If men's jobs pay higher in the lower wage that's prob due to higher risk, example building sites, tradesmen so higher risk higher reward and are all jobs women can choose to do to. Often due to equality of opportunity they aren't the best person for the job. This begs the question to we start giving jobs to people who aren't the most qualified? I happen to think women like the fact of working with mainly other women in jobs like nursing and would see job satisfaction go down if it was made 50/50.

[OrchidInTheSun]

I'd forgotten you supported self-ID.

There is no way you will be able to close the paygap if you won't acknowledge that women are oppressed and discriminated against because of our biology.

This statement from the document that CallMeWoman linked to above is rubbish:
"Trans women are likely to experience much of the same sexism that derives from female biology."

(as is most of the rest of it tbh) which is basically women be kind, oppression olympics blah blah blah.

Yes, gender stereotypes do hold us all back but if you can identify out of oppression which is what trans ideology suggests (or indeed into it which is what you're suggesting above) then you are suggesting that the sex pay gap is a result of performing femininity. Which is errant nonsense.