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Guest post: The government on junior doctors - "We're committed to the values of the NHS"

90 replies

MumsnetGuestPosts · 06/11/2015 18:15

Junior doctors working in the NHS are among the best in the world. They are the leaders of tomorrow and with over 50,000 across the country, the backbone of medical care in our hospitals.

The debate around proposed reforms to their contracts has highlighted their passion and dedication. That's why this week's firm contract offer from the Government and NHS Employers is important.

The Government has been clear that our proposed reforms are about delivering a fairer, safer deal for doctors and patients. This proposal builds on the cast-iron guarantees that the Government has already set out on better basic pay, a shorter working week and improving patient safety.

In order to deliver safe patient care around the clock, seven days a week to patients, we need a culture of safe working hours for NHS staff. The current junior doctors' contract incentivises long hours by rewarding those that work above and beyond the legal limit. Our proposal will change that.

Contrary to suggestions of a return to the long hours of the past, our proposals will reduce hours. The new contract will be based on no junior being required to work more than an average of 48 hours per week, with tougher limits on unsafe hours - including a new maximum working week of 72 hours, down from 91. Employers will be banned from scheduling any shifts over 13 hours too. This will all help to reduce burnout and improve patient safety, so junior doctors can deliver the very best care.

We are proposing an end to the 'week of nights' experienced by many junior doctors, with a new limit of four night shifts in a row and are introducing a new limit of five consecutive long days.

No junior doctor will receive a pay cut compared to their current contract either. Around three quarters of junior doctors moving to the new contract will see an increase in pay, with the remainder getting pay protection. There are a very small minority - around one per cent of junior doctors - who are forced to work excessive hours under the current contract and who will be better protected under the new contract against breaching hours limits. Junior doctors will get better basic pay based on progression through training instead of time served, a shorter working week and improved patient safety.

As the British Medical Association (the union for junior doctors) has now begun balloting its members for strike action, it's important to be clear about how we're making pay fairer.

We will remove the current situation where two doctors working very different hours can be paid the same. We will remove the complex banding payments system and replace it by paying doctors for hours worked. As opposed to misleading statements by the BMA, there will be around an 11% increase to junior doctors' basic pay - with proportionately higher pay for unsocial hours.

To support this offer, junior doctors can now log on to a pay calculator where they can work out projected pay. This can be found at here.

Everyone working in the NHS wants to give patients the same high quality care every day of the week and we know that junior doctors already work at weekends, providing good, safe care to patients.

But the current pay structures result in some hospitals rostering three times more senior cover during the week compared to the weekend. Junior doctors that do work weekends already often don't have the right level of support to deliver the safest care we all want.

Over the next few weeks, junior doctors will be invited to briefing sessions with Medical Directors and HR Directors at their NHS Trusts over the next few weeks to elaborate on the offer I have laid out here.

We're completely committed to the values of the NHS - the same values that encourage aspiring doctors to take up a career in medicine. That is why we have stated that a new contract will be in place from August 2016. The Government is very clear that it will not remove this timetable for putting in place a new contract. I hope this firm offer will allow junior doctors to make decision based on fact. Once again, we invite the BMA to come back to the table and negotiate on the detail of this offer to secure a deal that rewards doctors fairly and has safe care at its heart.

OP posts:
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Hatethis22 · 07/11/2015 11:36

Sorry Ben. We're not eating the burger.

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SauvignonPlonker · 07/11/2015 12:25

What a nasty piece of manipulative propaganda!

I'm an NHS employee. The NHS is currently on a knife-edge, running on employee's goodwill.

I'd love to see a 'work to rule' - it would be very effective & illustrate just how the NHS relies on it.

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mummyDA · 07/11/2015 12:41

Over 50% of current medical graduates are women.
Your proposed junior doctor contract state that:

  1. Normal working hours should extend from 7am - 10pm Monday to Saturday - thus requiring no out of hours renumeration.


Does childcare extend to those hours?
Is there affordable childcare on saturdays?
Is seeing ones on family at some point in a week not acceptable to the conservative government? or are they expected to leave medicine to do so.

  1. No pay protection for maternity leave.


So is it wrong for a woman to want to start a family?
And if a woman does - she will now do it at the expense of not only her career as she will be a 'junior' doctor for longer but also losing thousands of pounds too.

  1. 20 mins break every six hours.


How prey tell does this change in the current contract - support '7-day' NHS????
How are pregnant doctors going to be treated with such conditions?

  1. Financial safeguards that prevent hospitals from over working doctors are to be removed and doctors will self monitor retrospectively.


So how exactly do you claim working hours will be reduced?
There will be no paper evidence of excessive hours….or is that your intention……

The proposed new junior doctor contract serves ONE AIM - to make working conditions intolerable within the NHS.

Doctors will leave and find employment overseas, change careers etc.

Standards will fall…. and the conservatives can sell private healthcare as the rescue solution (IF ONE CAN AFFORD IT)

YOU SHOULD BE ASHAMED OF YOURSELF!!
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MustBeThursday · 07/11/2015 12:42

Glad to see everyone can see through this. Knowing several junior doctors, they are concerned that all the rubbish Jeremy Hunt and co are spreading around will turn public opinion against them, especially with the proposed strike action.

Apparently there are now cases of what they have dubbed the "Hunt Effect" - patients NOT going to hospital over the weekends in emergencies, because they think there won't be doctors there to treat them!

I'm with Sauvingnon - work to rule would really demonstrate how far above and beyond all NHS workers - not just Drs - go to look after patients.

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gasman · 07/11/2015 12:43

I'm an NHS consultant.

I work weekends. Some rearrangement would be good to optimise the emergency care we provide but in the whole it is adequate. My trust does son elective work at the weekends because of capacity issues Mon-Fri but we are limited in what we can do, not because of medical staffing - they roster enough of us to do the work but because pharmacy, radiology, Portering and play therapy aren't in in the same numbers.

I also dispute that capacity issues aside whether we need to spend the massive amount It will cost so that people can have elective procedures/ appointments done at the weekend given the state of the NHS's finances. And I'm pretty unwilling to provide additional elective work at weekends - as the amount I already work at weekends (I work on either a Saturday or Sunday on 1:3 weekends) massively impacts on my life already.

I also think everyone in the UK should think about the precedent this sets if Mon - Fri 07:00 -22:00 and Sat 07:00-19:00 is "social" for doctors how far will that trickle down into the rest of society. Long working hours are bad for families and work-life balance. And ultimately our health.

Removing the hours monitoring safeguards and financial penalties for breaching them will be catastrophic - as junior I saw how these worked to keep my rota safe and legal.

I haven't seen anyone mention the reduction in break times in this thread- tired hungry thirsty doctors make mistakes. I know I've done it.

I will support the juniors if they strike, my department and many others are already creating a contingency plan - consultants will act down so the patients will be safe.

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MargoReadbetter · 07/11/2015 13:01

Mr Gummer, this isn't working out as you expected. Care to comment or are your 'advisers' not available to work at weekends. It being unsocial hours and all that.

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BoreOfWhabylon · 07/11/2015 13:12

I bet MNHQ laughed like drains when ToryHQ approached them about publishing this.

Own. Goal.

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Carriemac · 07/11/2015 13:57

Ben have you clocked off till Monday? Or are you perhaps at the emergency department observing first hand how many staff are in saving lives on a Saturday whilst the tories are at home sitting on their backsides plotting how to ruin the country?

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mummyDA · 07/11/2015 14:26

Surely its only right that you abide by the same conditions you expect doctors to?

Given the comments above….I think you ought to reply…don't you? Its still 'normal working hours' at present…… we're waiting Ben….

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DoctorTwo · 07/11/2015 15:08

I don't know which spin doctor persuaded Jeremy Rhyming Slang to get you to pen that load of self righteous horseshit but he/she needs taking outside and shot. Then fined £10. We know you want to get the doctors first, us members of the public aren't as stupid as you think. You may own the MSM, but we know how to use Google.

We know you won't be back because 1. You don't have a weekend rota and 2. You've been handed your arse.

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Amar108 · 07/11/2015 16:05

so good to see so much public support on this thread. the Government completely insult public intelligence every day. if you feel so inclined please sign this petition to stop the spin and get them talking - doctors do not want to strike, the want to negotiate a fair contract that puts patient care first

you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/avert-a-doctors-strike-negotiate-with-the-bma-3?bucket&source=facebook-share-button&time=1446910945

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EYDavis · 07/11/2015 17:30

If you really are completely committed to the values of the NHS, the only remaining explanation is incompetence. Somehow I don't feel reassured.

Guest post: The government on junior doctors - "We're committed to the values of the NHS"
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Everstrong · 07/11/2015 17:46

Ah Ben, I am very reassured that doctors won't have to do a full week of nights and will have a maximum of four long days in a row. And a 20 minute break every 6 hours! How generous.

I am sure my husband will be grateful to know this too. Especially when he often does a 14 hour day without ANY break at all (maybe a kind nurse will fetch him a coffee to drink as he checks blood results) but generally his lunch comes back, uneaten, because there isn't time to have it.

He will also be grateful that he has less long days and night shifts to do. I assume of course that the rota co-ordinaries wouldn't have him doing 4 long days (12 hours each) then giving him Friday off and giving him nights Sat/Sun/Monday like they do now so that in a 7 day period he clocks up 84 contracted hours (not counting his unpaid overtime cause he's not the sort to walkout when a heart attack comes in 5 minutes before clocking off time)

I am an NHS professional too (not a doctor though) and our working patterns mean that many months, we don't see each other for 3 out of the 4 weekends. It's okay doing ridiculous hours when your a fresh faced 21 year old but we are a bit older (and have kids now) and I tell you it's bloody knackering now.

But it's alright, we're all in it together so I am sure that yourself and your colleagues will extend your normal working hours to encompass evenings and weekends and ensure that you take a pay cut just to that we don't feel too hard done by. I look forward to hearing your response and I am certain I won't have to wait until Monday (as you haven't clocked off yet...have you?)

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Lovelybitofsquirrel · 07/11/2015 18:14

I don't know how these people sleep at night. What total lack of conscience allows people to lie like this? And the same goes for the mainstream media who peddle those lies instead of holding the government to account. What has happened to proper journalism, as opposed to peddling government propaganda?
Cabinet ministers seem to think that repeating falsehoods will make them true. We see it with attacks on schools and teaching, in order to pursue an ideological policy of removing as many schools as possible from state control; the same is happening here, attack the NHS in order to weaken it and therefore try to justify privatisation.
We are very lucky in this country to have an excellent health service which is free at the point of delivery. We have such excellent and dedicated medical professionals who deserve respect and fair treatment. I totally support junior doctors striking, if that is what is necessary - whatever it takes to preserve fair pay, safe working hours and, ultimately, maintain the quality of provision they already provide.

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MargoReadbetter · 07/11/2015 18:26

The very nature of people is changing. Dog eat dog. Strike the other one, let me survive for a bit longer. It's like Stalinism.

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elspethmcgillicuddy · 07/11/2015 18:38

Thank you mumsnetters for your support. Behind closed doors junior dr social media is going nuts saying how great you all are. Just thought I'd pass on the gratitude :)

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GuiltyAsAGirlCanBe · 07/11/2015 19:38

.

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HashTagYesYes · 07/11/2015 19:52

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

seabreeze760 · 07/11/2015 21:37

I hope you realise from the above posts that targeting support websites for parents is NOT going to work for the government.

The new contract for junior doctors significantly disadvantages MOTHERS and working doctors - who get pay cuts in wages above that to heir male and their female colleagues with no children just because they want to have time off for maternity leave and possibly work less than full time after this. Given the number of female students in medical school are you completely trying to wipe out the number of mothers wanting to return to work as doctors (i.e. the majority of your work force). I assume if the same pay cut were offered to your wife you would not be feeling the same way.

The government spin on all of this is sickening. To work 24-7 (as we already do) in and for the NHS has to mean that we all fundamentally believe in the NHS and love the work we do. Instead of demoralising us you are thankfully uniting all health care professionals to fight against your plan to break up the NHS. Cutting junior doctors pay (as you are, and don't you dare deny it) will loose us a valuable commodity which in the next 5-10 years will leave us with too few doctors . Loss to the tax payers and a significant loss to the medical profession and its not just the junior doctors planning to leave its consultants and all other NHS professionals too.

Stop the crap. Admit you have run out of money but despite this we work our backsides off to keep the service going and look after the british people and say thank you.

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shergar · 07/11/2015 21:43

Hunt and his cronies insisting over and over that subtracting 30% from junior doctors' salaries and then giving an 11% pay rise constitutes an overall pay rise, while making them work more antisocial hours will also improve their quality of life, is risible. It's like something out of Orwell's 1984:

‘You are a slow learner, Winston,’ said O’Brien gently.
‘How can I help it?’ he blubbered. ‘How can I help seeing what is in front of my eyes? Two and two are four.’
‘Sometimes, Winston. Sometimes they are five. Sometimes they are three. Sometimes they are all of them at once. You must try harder. It is not easy to become sane.’

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Devilishpyjamas · 07/11/2015 22:48

Counting down the days until the next general election. Let's hope there's some NHS/social care/education system left to salvage.....

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aireyje · 08/11/2015 04:06

This is utter rubbish. The argument used that junior doctors have to work 72 hours in a working week is a direct contravention of the European Working time directive (WTD) This means that no employee should work more than 48 hours in a week unless obviously they have opted out which should be completely voluntary.
I think junior doctors should stop opting out of the WTD, ensure that their NHS trust is monitoring their working hours (which I don't believe in most trusts is being effectively monitored at the moment) and if it is being contravened report them to the HSE for unsafe working practice where they can then be fined up to £5000. If every junior Dr did this the NHS would be forced to recruit 1000s of extra Drs (that from a European WTD perspective should already be in post) and stop the governments rubbish argument that they are imposing these changes from a safety perspective and not a complete money saving scam.
I have to say I do not love your work Jeremy Hunt.

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aireyje · 08/11/2015 04:11
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SplitterBug · 08/11/2015 09:15

Picture this:
Junior doctor mum-of-two is a registrar in a fairly antisocial specialty (e.g. acute medicine, surgery, paediatrics, obstetrics..)
'D'H's ego can't cope with having to do his fair share of housework/childcare and decides to play away with OW.
Junior doctor consults MN Relationships Flowers, and eventually decides to tell H to FOTTFSOFATFOSM.

Junior doctor realises her current shifts and training rotation will not be feasible as a single parent; starts retraining in a less antisocial specialty and goes part time (still on duty 33 hrs/week).

This is currently affordable, as basic pay in the new specialty includes any increments earned within the old specialty. This will remain affordable under the new contract for this particular doctor, due to the "pay protection" bribe.

Under the new junior contract, someone newly in this position would go back to the ST1 (year 3) level on the payscale - even if they have 8-10 years experience, and even if lots of that knowledge/experience is transferable to the new role.

It could as easily be, for example, a senior surgical registrar who suffers a serious hand injury, can no longer operate, and wishes to retrain in radiology.

These people will probably be lost from the workforce under the new contract, and this will be tragic for the NHS and general public given that we are already on the low side for doctor numbers compared with other developed nations.

It's not just unfair, it's short-sighted, it's madness.

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