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Guest post: 'Why aren't mothers included on marriage certificates?'

98 replies

MumsnetGuestPosts · 15/05/2014 12:17

Did you know that marriage certificates in England and Wales include a section for the names and occupations of the fathers of the bride and groom, but the names and occupations of their mothers are not allowed to be recorded?

In Scotland and Northern Ireland information about mothers is included. Civil Partnerships also recognise mothers, unlike same sex marriages, which mirror their heterosexual counterparts.

‘So what?’ I hear some corners of the internet cry – ‘haven't we got bigger fish to fry?’ But imagine you've brought up your child on your own – when the most important day of their life comes along you won't be legally acknowledged, and the absent father will be. And if you've raised a child together, imagine that only he is considered important enough to give his blessing to the union.

And it's about more than a hurtful snub - it's about the erasing of women from the civil and legal system of which marriage is a central part. We're writing women out of history, and it seems indicative of a society where decisions are made by men to suit men.

As a consequence of women being under-represented on every platform, it often takes a petition to get any progress. So, I set one up. I am campaigning for a change in the law so that those who want to can record information about their mothers, and more than 33,000 people have signed it so far.


They, like I, find it astonishing that a legal document in 2014 discriminates against women in this way, particularly when you consider that public bodies are supposed to be following the Equality Act regardless of cost. When the UK signed up to the global convention on the elimination of all forms of discrimination against women, it committed to: “incorporate the principle of equality of men and women in their legal system, abolish all discriminatory laws and adopt appropriate ones prohibiting discrimination against women.”

Many would argue it's astonishing that a couple should need any 'sign-off' from their parents at all, but at least if it's both parents it feels less like a transfer of property from father-of-the-bride to father-of-the-groom.

Supporters of the petition are young and old, women and men, and include lots of vicars and registrars. Younger people are astonished to learn about this inequality, and older people are amazed that nothing has changed since they got married. Family historians have pointed out the difficulties they have in tracing the maternal line without being able to find corroborating information from certificates.

One vicar said: "I'm tired of apologising for the sexism in marriage paperwork”, and a registrar commented: "I have been campaigning for this within my role for many years. It is a competition between bureaucracy and equality." Last week Caroline Criado-Perez, who was successful in her campaign to keep a woman on English bank notes, wrote that she will not be marrying her fiancé until equality wins out.

As with Caroline's campaign, this may seem like a little thing, but the visibility of women is essential in the fight for equality – we need to be seen as agents in our marriages, rather than just bit players. And in answer to the people who groan "not another petition" - I am proud to continue the feminist suffragette history of gathering signatures. It's just a little easier now - unlike our pioneering fore-sisters who won us the vote, I don't have to trudge around door to door due to change.org, Mumsnet and social media.

Because I'm already married, I'm going to add the information about my mother and mother-in-law to my original marriage certificate so that I can pass it on to my son and future generations will know who we are. The £9.25 for a duplicate copy (as I will invalidate the original with my pesky quest for acknowledgement!) isn't an enormous sum, but I shouldn't have to pay to right this wrong - they should have been included in the first place. If you agree, do sign and share the petition here.

OP posts:
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nameequality · 19/05/2014 08:32

I'm going to amend our original to pass on to DS. It's easy to get a certified copy of the original should one ever be required.

Following on from what LRD said about Caroline Norton - there's a bit about her in
this book.

Also info about the Married Women's Property Act as well as lots about Votes for Women.

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Andrewofgg · 19/05/2014 14:22

You should in any event have certified copies of your birth and marriage certificates ready to hand for your family to find in case of sudden death. DW and I have copies of some good friends' certs and they have ours as a bsck-up.

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NiceCupOfTeaAndAPartyRing · 28/05/2014 11:39

Can someone please answer a question for me regarding this? I'm due to get married next September. My official name is double barelled with my mums and dads. Dad not been on the scene since I was 4, I am everything I am because of my DM.
Will the official vows be read with my 'official' surname, as that is what is on my passport and birth certificate? Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Petition signed x

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nameequality · 05/06/2014 09:18

I don't know the answer (& congratulations Thanks) but you may find an answer in this guide on the Government website.

Alternatively how about changing your name by deed poll before September if you want to decide which name is in the vows?

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nameequality · 05/06/2014 09:20

I am pleased to report that Caroline Lucas MP has tabled an Early Day Motion in Parliament that has cross party support.

See if your MP has signed it here. If they haven't then please write to them to let them know why you support this campaign and ask them to add their name to the Early Day Motion.

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nameequality · 09/06/2014 19:27
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nameequality · 13/06/2014 17:39

I have nearly 48,000 signatures now! And 70 MPs have signed the EDM.

I am looking forward to Theresa May's written answer to Caroline Lucas's question tabled in HoC.

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HaroldsBishop · 17/06/2014 14:14

I had no idea about this - signed Smile

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JaneParker · 17/06/2014 16:28

It is very unfair. My daughter married last year. I ( a pretty successful lawyer) was not named. The groom's mother - a doctor - was not named. The retired father in law and my daughter's lower earner father were named, even though it was in a sense the women funding the wedding. Thankfully I gave the parent speech and my daughter walked down the aisle alone so did her bit for feminism. It really does need to change.

Also I look at old certificates for family tree purposes and it would be so interesting if the women's careers were on there. Even in the 1920s my relatives - female - all had careers.

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nameequality · 17/06/2014 19:54

Update> 64,000 signatures at //www.change.org/nameequality and 78 MPs have signed the EDM at www.parliament.uk/edm/2014-15/27 - if you want your MP to sign then it is really easy to contact them via //www.theyworkforyou.com .

Gloria de Piero, Shadow Woman's Minister has written an article in the Telegraph today in support of this.

Please sign up and please encourage others to sign up.

At the moment the Home Office is trying to fob us off saying that it is complex and costly - event though they have said that they are still trying to work out what the costs are. Confused

JaneParker - many people signing the petition have said how hurtful it was to be left off this important document. I suggest you order a copy from the General Register office and add in your details and your DD's MIL's details and then you can keep this annotated copy for your family archives/to pass on to future generations.

I'm actually going to do this ON MY ORIGINAL - rendering it useless as a certificate but making it into a great document to pass on. Will have to get a certified copy of my own certificate before I do this.

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QueenStromba · 18/06/2014 14:46

I got a letter from my MP which makes it sound like we've won but it's going to take some time to filter through.

"As a government minister I am unable, by convention, to sign any early day motions as doing so is likely to breach the ministerial code's rules on collective responsibility.

However, I recognise that his is an important issue for many people, and that is why I am pleased to be able to tell you that the Home Office is currently reviewing the information contained on marriage certificates and a number of options are being considered.

Whilst I am sure you can appreciate that the process of replacing all the certificates held by local authorities, churches, and other religious buildings, is logistically complex and costly, I understand that my colleagues in government are investigating how this change may be achieved."

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nameequality · 18/06/2014 20:37

Yes I've heard of other's who have received similar. Is it from a Tory Grin - it's very disingenuous for them to allude to the fact that this campaign is won when it is not. Shock

The Home Office have barely moved from their position right back at the beginning. They say they are looking at it where as before they had no plans to look at it...there is absolutely no timeframe for how long this 'review' will take - it could be another 175 years (= number of years that certificates have existed in basically this format..)

Some one in Whitehall gave information to the Sunday Times saying that the Jenny Willott, Lib Dem Equalities Junior Minister was preparing to make this change. I understand that this is not the case at all - it is not her department's responsibility. The Home Office is in charge of the General Register Office and is the appropriate department to bring forth legislation to get this changed.

My MP, Steve Brine wrote to Sajid Javid the Equalities Minister several weeks ago and has not heard back from him as to whether he supports my campaign....

Gloria de Piero, Shadow Women's minister has written in favour in the Telegraph yesterday which is great! btw the comments under the article are Shock Hmm Shock

She has written to Nicky Morgan, the Government Women's Minister. I will be interested to see if she gets a positive response!

The written answers (identical) to Caroline Lucas's and Gloria de Piero's questions can be seen here and here :

"The Home Office has indicated that it will not be possible to answer this question within the usual time period. An answer is being prepared and will be provided as soon as it is available."

Thanks for your support!

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QueenStromba · 19/06/2014 17:07

It is a Tory and I was wondering if I'd been legalesed. Any point writing back to him and asking him to clarify?

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nameequality · 19/06/2014 20:12

If you have time then there is every point.

Maybe ask him to ask the Equalities Minister Sajid Javid whether he agrees that the current certificates are discriminatory.

Also that HO are seriously looking at this then they need to communicate a time frame otherwise there is nothing to stop this 'review' from taking years...

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LactationB00b · 29/06/2014 10:52

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

AshleyDavidson · 30/06/2014 13:37

Oh, this is kind of funny. Sorry, if my comment might sound off topic, but this article reminds me about that part of the Bible that lists the generations after Adam and Eve and all the names there are male. Like men reproduced on their own Grin So childish and stupid.

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sandysip · 30/06/2014 13:43

Welcome to the 18th Century!

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nameequality · 30/06/2014 17:13

I have an update - Home Office still "considering" this...

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nameequality · 04/07/2014 18:37

A better update. Grin

I am very happy that the Equality Minister has discussed #MothersOnMarriageCerts with the Home Secretary!

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nameequality · 04/07/2014 23:23

Watch #MothersOnMarriageCerts being discussed in the House Of Commons!!! From 57 mins 30 seconds.

Look at the body language of Labour when Sajid Javid misanswers their question re cost of adding mothers to marriage certificates!!

www.bbc.co.uk/democracylive/house-of-commons-28142682

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ezinma · 18/08/2014 16:58

Congratulations nameequality. A really worthwhile cause, I hope it's not premature to say that when this happens it will be long overdue.

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nameequality · 19/08/2014 19:25

Thank you Mumsnet for hosting my guest post and supporting the campaign and thank you to all the MNers who signed the petition.

Here is some media coverage:

Me on BBC South TV talking about winning the campaign www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-28844124

Me being a bit giddy on BBC Radio Solent - www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02493yy from 1 hour 36 minutes.

Me on BBC Radio Wales www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04dq722 - from 1 hour 42 minutes.

www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-politics/11041636/Mothers-on-marriage-certificates-victory-Cameron-pledges-to-add-mothers-names.html

www.theguardian.com/society/2014/aug/18/mothers-names-marriage-registers-david-cameron

www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/08/mothers-names-will-finally-be-added-uk-marriage-certificates

No timeframe yet so I will be on the case making sure this is implemented soon! Grin

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