School plan for possibly gifted child

[TheWildOnesRunningWithTheDogs]

First, I feel slightly fraudulent posting on this board as I'm not sure whether DD really is gifted. Her teacher has been assessing her ability over the past term and is going to update me when DD goes back. So, apologies if I am in the wrong place!

Her reading age has been assessed at 12 (she is nearly 6, so in year 1). She mostly reads non-fiction as she is not great with any narrative tension. She loves Murderous Maths, Horrible Histories and anything about science and nature. She is also pretty good at maths - knows her times tables up to 12 and can calculate others (e.g. 17 X 6) in her head, can do division with remainders and understands percentages and can convert a percentage to a fraction. She loves maths and often asks me good questions about it (e.g. she asked me apropos of nothing whether you always get a square number if you multiply 2 square numbers together. I gave her the wrong answer 😳).

Whether she is actually gifted or not, she is working ahead of the class and her teacher has indicated that she wants to put together a plan for teaching her (presumably to cover next year as well as there's only one term left). I thought people on this board would have some experience of this. What kind of thing should such a plan include? What questions should I ask the teacher? DD is at a state school and I fully appreciate that they will be more focused on the students who are struggling.

I'm quite happy to support DD's interests outside school and she does plenty of activities such as piano lessons, indoor climbing, etc. I'm really asking about what it's reasonable to expect for her in a normal state school environment.

Thank you in advance!

[ReneeX]

I think you should give it a time. By year 4 maybe 5 it will be visible if she is gifted or just very good meaning as several in the class " above expected".

[TheWildOnesRunningWithTheDogs]

@ReneeX I am due to have a discussion with the teacher, at her initiative, in a week or so, rather than in 4 years' time. Do you have any advice relevant to that?

[Smartiepants79]

Well I would ask what they feel her next steps should be? What will challenge her and make her extend her knowledge and how they plan to facilitate this.
She does sound unusual to me. Particularly her number understanding. It may level out as she grows.
How is her reading comprehension? Can she make links and infer from the text.
I’d definitely be making expanding her fiction reading a priority.
Keep looking for different ways she can learn, not just school work.
How is she managing socially?

[Picklesandsquid]

She sounds exceptional to me. This isn't what you've asked but would you consider moving her to an academically selective pre-prep? Appreciate this may not be a route you'd want to go down (and I don't want to start a state vs private debate) but I'm suggesting because DC is at one and lots of gifted kids move there from state (on bursaries). DCs school literally exists to challenge and motivate gifted children (BTW she'd be way ahead of her peers even at DCs school).

[LetItGoToRuin]

@TheWildOnesRunningWithTheDogs we were in a relatively similar position when our DD was in Y1, though she was not as advanced as yours.

DD was very ahead with reading (though they didn't give a reading age) and was basically very ready to learn in Y1, grasped things quickly, did any extension challenges and was then encouraged to and help others. She started to feel uncomfortable about 'teaching' her classmates (understandably) so we encouraged DD to work quickly and accurately and then ask the teacher for something a bit harder (ie be a positive problem!)

DD's Y1 teacher did contact us a couple of times to say she was aware that DD needed more challenge, and she kept talking about putting an appropriate learning plan in place, but it never happened.

It's really positive that your DD's teacher wants to make sure she's appropriately challenged! I would remember that you're very fortunate right now (we found that the level of challenge differed between each year/teacher, so it may not always be this good) and just go with the flow and see what she says.

I agree with what @Smartiepants79 says about comprehension, and also the social side. When they have a friendship wobble, all the academic stuff pales into insignificance!

Even if you find that the teacher can't offer a great detail of differentiation (with ~30 children to support) or if future teachers are less receptive, don't worry too much. Your DD sounds really bright and also motivated to learn, so with good enrichment at home, I'm sure she will do really well, even if she's not always challenged at primary.

I'd be interested to hear how it goes with the teacher, so do come back and update us, if you feel it's appropriate.

[Babdoc]

When my autistic and gifted DD (IQ of 166) was at the state village primary, she had half an hour a day of one to one tuition with the headmistress, and they got secondary school maths textbooks sent down from the nearest city high school for DD to work on by herself while her classmates were learning basic arithmetic. The head then set up a meeting with me, her, and the heads of department of the secondary school, to plan DD’s transition to secondary in advance. I was actually quite impressed with how accommodating the schools were.

[ReneeX]

No, not about the discussion with the teacher but my comment was general and based on my experience, @TheWildOnesRunningWithTheDogs . My son was a fluent reader at 3 and the nursery teachers were in shock about it. He was way ahead of his peers in Reception. In the primary school here they have 3 grades: -, =, + which is below expectations, as expected and above expectations. The time changed things. He is now 10 yrs old and as it happen he revealed to be way and way above average at computers and excellent mathematician. At Reading Comprehension his grade is also "+" but so several other kids do in the class. What I am trying to say is that your daughter strong points may evolve and in Reception it is too early to see what it will be like later. She is clearly a very bright girl but she may surprise you with something unexpected.

In our Primary, kids were allocated to different groups basing on the level of knowledge they represent. There are book bands colours and some kids are reading the basic books and other are so called Free Readers outside of book bands. The same applies to maths. Although all kids have to follow the same curiculum, some are assigned additional tasks too.

[BrieAndChilli]

My eldest was assessed when he started school., so when he was 4 his reading age was 14+ and spelling assessment wasnt able to accurately measure as it only went up to age 8. Like your DD, my DS mostly liked factual books and was also very good at maths. He went to a state primary - and luckily it is in a small village and places are very sought after so it was already a school that had the facilities to work to his ability.
The school would place all students in small groups for maths and literacy based on ability so it wasnt totally unusal to have a mixed year group eg a reading group with a couple of reception age together with year 1s. DS was placed in the highest group of year 2. The school said that he really should have been in a year 6 groups but socially and physically it wasnt a good idea due to the size difference plus the difference in chat topics etc! Also as DS wasnt very good socially they also wanted to help develope his social skills with children closer to his age.
As the school already taught to level rather than whole class it was easy for them to give him appropriate work, he had fine motor skill issues so he had time out to practise things like cutting with scissors and they provided touch typing classes for him.
It can be down to the teacher they have, his teacher in year 2 was amazing, she did special spelling games with him while others were doing the normal spellings etc.

He is now 16 and doing GCSEs and on track to get all A*s. His secondary school have also been good, he is part of a special scheme for the top students.

We never pushed him or hot housed him and let him dictate his own interests. Now that he is 16 and starting to work out his careeer path we are looking at option such as applying for ESA space camp in norway next summer etc.

As someone who was hot housed (eg joined mensa at 12) and then sent to provate boarding school age 15, I crashed and burned and dropped out of Uni (although there were other reasons mainly) so I was very concious of not making the same mistake with DS.

[ReneeX]

@Smartiepants79

You are very much right. It would be good for her to take expected reading table for the age groups and assess her basing on it. The Inference making, drawing conclusions through Reading Comprehension tests say more than what type of books the child is reading.

[Smartiepants79]

I would be wary and careful about making her too ‘different’ to her peers. You need to make sure that this plan doesn’t include her being socially isolated away from her peer group too much. Not too much time learning away from them or in other groups and classes.

[Smartiepants79]

And reading age it not a particularly good measure of how good a reader the child is.
What other assessments have been done?

[TheVanguardSix]

DS 21’s BFF in primary was gifted. Similar to your DD. Advanced. What I would say is slow your roll and prepare for the reality that ALL of your daughter’s needs won’t be met by state primary. In the way that I realise my ASD DS’ (9) primary school can only do their best (and it’s limited because of funding and there are 30 kids to focus on), you’ll have to parent a bit more than expected. I remember DS21’s friend’s mother describing it as difficult parenting a super smart child simply because there wasn’t enough to offer. I know it’s comparing apples and oranges my son’s ASD vs. your DC’s gifted nature, but actually, your DD will have needs because there is a risk of her being quite bored at mainstream school. I recall this being the biggest challenge for DS21’s BFF. He did end up going to a decent uni and doing a degree in management or something quite ‘normal’, which is great but we were so sure he’d rule the world with an iron fist by 14! HE was so sure! 😆
I think you’ll get to know your DD’s needs so well by year 3, that you’ll be able to make firm decisions about her education that you’re not yet ready to make. You’ll need and receive more information. You’re in observation mode right now and for a little while yet.

[TheWildOnesRunningWithTheDogs]

Thank you for your help!

@Smartiepants79 socially: not great but not awful. I don't think she really has a best friend or clear friendship group and she tells me she prefers playing on her own and day-dreaming. She is friendly with other kids in her class and will chat to them when we bump into them in the park etc. I do my best to organise playdates, and she does a couple of after-school clubs as well as activities outside school. It's a work in progress. I have wondered about neurodivergence but no teacher has ever mentioned it.

@Picklesandsquid I would prefer not to move her if possible but I will keep an open mind.

[ReneeX]

@Smartiepants79

And reading age it not a particularly good measure of how good a reader the child is.
What other assessments have been done?

Exactly.Reading Age only shows how good is the child at reading ( decoding vetbally the text) and doesn't show the comprehension level or ability to write gramatically.

[CatOnTheChair]

Be wary if they suggest teaching with the year above. What happens when this crosses a key stage, or in Y6? (And personally, kids who are picked out as exceptional don't tend to only be a year ahead, so that work doesn't stretch them either)
I'd always go sideways rather than further infront.

[BotCrossedHun]

I think some kind of plan at the moment is a good idea, even if her abilities do change later on - at the moment, she is well ahead of the others, and that needs dealing with in a suitable way.

I wouldn't be surprised if socially she isn't great, because in many ways, it's hard to socialise with children who don't have similar interests. I was reading far beyond the level of others in my year, and for quite a while, just had interests that were different as well. It doesn't necessarily mean social skills are poor, but that there may be few others that she really has a connection with. So encouraging friendships with other ages is fine, or even not worrying if she doesn't seem to have friends her age but prefers to read or spend time alone - it's not always because a child can't make friends, but just that they are actually quite different. Other activities with children who are also passionate about something particular - e.g., music or chess or whatever - might give opportunities.

I'd also be a bit wary of making her help others too much. yes, a little of this can be good at developing compassion and understanding, and yes, there are some things that a bright child can gain in terms of their own levels by explaining to others, but when there is that much of a gap, it doesn't really help the child who is tutoring understand the work any better themselves, because they really don't need that. In my case, it ended up just hampering socially, because the other children didn't see me as a peer, exactly, but more like an older child, older sibling etc, someone that they come for help to rather than someone that they'd just be friends with. It was also clear that boys who were well ahead didn't get used in this way as much as girls did, but were challenged more, especially in maths.

Another difficulty is that if a child isn't stretched in a good way, they might end up challenging themselves in ways that are not that helpful - in my case, perfectionism. Aiming for perfect scores on things gave me something to work for and achieve, but ultimately didn't help me learn to cope with mistakes or failure very well, and gave far too much importance to perfection. Learning to accept something that was 'almost perfect' and then sometimes moving on to something that was actually a bit of a challenge intellectually would probably have been better for me. You don't always want this - there is some benefit in being able to strive for perfection, and to enjoy the achievement of 'getting there' and being able to do something easily and well, rather than just always having more challenges put in front of you, which can at times also destroy motivation. But there's a balance to be had.

Things that would have helped - simply reading was a huge one; you can learn so much from both fiction and non-fiction, and having a bit of directed work this way, advice/discussions etc would have kept me very occupied. Maths challenges - not left to my own devices, but actually shown how to approach things, problem solving methods, ideas, etc. Learning associated skills like computer programming. Working on other activities like music or crafts or whatever - again being taught properly, not just told to do it to fill in time on my own. Puzzles - word puzzles, logic puzzles etc.

[2bazookas]

You're very lucky her school wants to meet her needs and is planning ways to do it.. I'd welcome that with open arms. I'd strongly recommend that you keep her in her current class group matching her age. She won't be the only bright spark in it so she'll have other kids to work with; and the social aspect of school life is as important as the intellectual one.. especially for gifted children. Intellectual precocity is rarely matched by emotional maturity. Don't make her rush through childhood, let her body and feelings take their natural time.

[SpringCherryTrees]

It’s really tricky isn’t it. DS has been accepted on a gifted and talented programme outside of school, because he is good at maths (they have to be in the top 5%) and reading.

However he is pretty low in comprehension of long verbal text. He’s ‘twice exceptional’ I guess.

I decided just to help him myself outside of school. Because he’s in a specialist special needs school which have fairly low standards of academic ability. But which helps him in other areas that he really needs.

But I found that he’s lost the motivation to excel in maths. I think it’s partly because he’s just not stimulated at school and wonders what the point is. I’m a bit worried as he used to love maths, and I could see how happy he was being able to master one area of his life, particularly as he finds many things very difficult. On lockdown I used to send his teacher his maths, which was way above the level they were giving him, and DS was really hoping I think his teacher would be really pleased. Instead she just ignored what he could do, and just kept giving him more ‘verbal’ but very basic maths.

So I think that sometimes we do have to nurture that gifted side, in a gentle but encouraging way. In the same way we’d nurture someone who showed us they loved football or art.

[TheWildOnesRunningWithTheDogs]

@SpringCherryTrees I had not dissimilar interactions with DD's reception teacher over her reading books. I remember DD reading Dahl's "The giraffe, the pelly and me" to herself one day while I was tidying up, and being so caught up in it that she burst into tears when the boy said goodbye to the animals at the end. The following week her teacher said she didn't seem very interested in the painfully easy school-allocated books. No kidding! Luckily her current teacher is a bit more engaged, but I am conscious that that's going to be a question of luck each school year and that encouragement out of school is important. I'm sorry to hear that your son's school aren't really stepping up.

[Chisquared]

She sounds very similar to my ds at that age and it's great the school want to plan. DS was at state primary and they did their very best with him. Mathematically he had an hour a week in Y 2 and 3 with a secondary school Maths teacher with whom the school had a partnership. She did lots of enrichment and he also used nrich. He did do a fair bit of teaching himself from Murderous Maths and his Y5 and 6 teachers were happy for him to work on his own during Maths lessons. In Year 6 he had a wonderful 6th former who came once a week and they did mathematical nonsense together, doing odd 'proofs' and the maths of black holes and the such.
I would think of it as a long game though. The first couple of years of secondary were tough for him but he got his head down and concentrated on subjects like music and French. The Head of Maths at his school insisted he say with the class but he was allowed to do UKMT challenges once he had finished class work. By Year 10 he sat out of lessons and taught himself the AS syllabus and took the exam in Y 10 (before his GCSE's!). But the Maths department went out of their way to give him bits and pieces of off curriculum Maths.
At her current level of understanding mathematical concepts I would be surprised if she levels out to 'above expected'. My ds stood out a mile as being 'different' but he had no problem with it and surprisingly neither did his peers at secondary. I made sure he did football, athletics, cubs and the like but academically he was clearly different.
He is now in his 3rd year at Oxbridge studying Maths - not a 'genius' (he tells me there are just 3 of these in his year of 180 and they REALLY stand out) but he is in the top 10 of his year and a scholar. He still loves Maths.
Have a look at UKMT and the challenges they offer for when dd gets a bit older - the highlight of DS's secondary education was getting to the second round of the Senior Olympiad and having a solution published.

[TheWildOnesRunningWithTheDogs]

@Chisquared that is very interesting and useful, thank you! I don't kid myself that she's a genius but at present she is at a different level to her classmates. I will look at the resources you mentioned.

[strawberryandcreams]

Reading age doesn't just measure the ability to read words. The whole point is comprehension. My son is 6 and has a reading age of 9. He is a curious little soul and loves working things out. He questions everything and is extremely bright. He's also socialable and easy going. My daughter on the other hand is the opposite. And keeps me humble- she is fantastic in other ways.

Your child sounds gifted OP. I don't have any advice but follow the teacher, push your child where poss and look into extra curricular. Keep that want for learning alive and make sure it doesn't become boring to her. And ensure the next teacher in September is on the same wavelength

[LittleBlueBrioTrain]

It's also going to be really important, potentially more so, to encourage her in the areas that she does struggle with more - ensure she has social opportunities outside of school etc.

[TheWildOnesRunningWithTheDogs]

@strawberryandcreams that's interesting, thank you. I don't really know what test they used as I just got a quick comment from the teacher at pick-up time. She definitely wouldn't get anything from the books I was reading at 12, but most of the science books she reads (and definitely understands) are aimed at ages 10-12, so it doesn't seem miles off.

[extrastrongmints]

two good books which deal specifically with designing gifted IEPs (individual education plans) are:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Re-Forming-Gifted-Education-Matching-Program/dp/0910707464?tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Challenging-Highly-Gifted-Learners-Author/dp/B00XTAQWBY?tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21