Could you talk to me abot what happens in secondary schools with G&T children?

[KevinAndMe]

As I have no idea how the system works (Not british...).

Basically dc1 is starting secondary this year. He has spent most of his primary year being bored/finding things easy even though all the teachers have recognised that he is way ahead.

He has had one teacher with a solid background in maths/science who has commented that his knowledge & understanding in science was at GCSE level. He was in Y5... A lot of the other teachers just haven't been able to understand what the heck ke is going on about (and then some have grown quite ressentful about it).

Now this is a background where we have NOT being teaching him anything at home. He learnt from books and TV programs and asking questions.

Now that he is in Y7, what can I expect from school? They are streaming from Y7 in maths, Y9 in science but will that really be enough to finally challenge him a bit?
If not, what would you advise to do to keep him interested? I don't want to 'teach him' new concepts as such. This will just widen the gap even more. But what else could I do?

[KevinAndMe]

no plan to go in just right now .

Tbh, I have been trying to adjust my expectations. I have always been told that teachers in Primary would adjust to the level of the child. My experience is that it's just not happening.

From what I can gather on this thread, it's not going to happen in Secondary either. At least now I know and I can stop hoping it will happen and concentrate on doing other things.

I will be keeping an eye on the sets and have a chat with the teacher in October, depending on what the results are and how dc1 is responding.

You are right that things will probably be OK (ish) for a while. You have the novelty of the organisation, different teachers etc...

[var123]

I am not sure if this is what you are planning to do anyway, OP, but I strongly suggest giving it until at least the end of September before contacting the school, unless there is an urgent problem (such as bullying).

Schools seem to take it slow at first, probably to make the children feel at ease and to give the teachers an idea of ability (and who are the ones who can't sit still, and who are the ones who like to chat and who specifically needs to be well away from whom, etc., etc).

I think it will be October before you start to see what the school will really be like. Personally, I suspect that it may challenge your son for a while, but he'll soon get on top of the new work and be bored again. However, that's just a guess based on your description of primary.

Wait until it happens though, if it does happen at all. Otherwise your conversations will get you nowhere but may well make the school less open to listening and considering what you have to say.

[JustRichmal]

Here is the website

They run 3 levels of challenge: junior, intermediate and senior throughout the year. Their questions challenge the students to think about how to solve maths problems. If you look on the mentoring section you can see what that involves as well as some past questions. Even if his school does not do it, it is still worth a look, because the past papers and mentoring questions provide depth of thinking to a student's maths skills.

[KevinAndMe]

What is the UKMT Maths Challenge?

[JustRichmal]

Does the school do UKMT Junior Maths Challenge? If he does well in the challenge you could ask the school if he could go on to the mentoring scheme in year 8. It would mean them providing a teacher to set and mark the work, but there are bound to be others in his year with the ability and enthusiasm to benefit from it.

[BertrandRussell]

Tell him to give it a couple of weeks. He'll probably find that most of the other kids didn't feel able to speak out yet. And everyone's finding their feet.

[Lurkedforever1]

I agree it's probably just to set the majority at ease. Dds school is selective, and on her induction and taster sessions they still did stuff below the level a child would need to be to even get a place, in order to set them at ease and account for kids that were nervous/shy. Not to mention that they still need to get to know the kids actual ability over the first few weeks.

[var123]

None of them have even ever watched robin hood?!

I know its disheartening, and maybe you are wondering if you've made a mistake. TBH i've asked myself that several times this last year too. Unless the school has really really low expectations (in which case you definitely HAVE made a mistake!), then it will get better.

Tell him he's not the odd one out. lots of children know that sort of stuff. Its just everyone feels quite shy on their first day.

[KevinAndMe]

No idea about CAT test but they do have a couple of maths test coming in the next 2 weeks to put them in sets.

It's not just the maths though. It's all the rest too. Eg in history, the teacher started to ask if anyone knew about the crusades. Big blank, apart from dc1 etc etc.

I know it's the start if the year so some children won't dare talking at all, even if they do know the answer. But for him, it was very disheartening. He is still feeling the odd one out iyswim

[var123]

I agree. It will get better, and soon.

All your son experienced yesterday was the outcome of attempts to provide reassurance to everyone in a mixed ability class that they'll be able to cope at secondary school.

Do you know if the school will do / has already done CAT tests? (Cognitive Aptitude Tests i.e. IQ tests). If the school does them, then they will probably give the children a few weeks to settle down and then use the tests, plus what the teachers have witnessed regarding attitude to work and behaviour to sort the children into sets. Then the lesson content will improve dramatically.

[SheGotAllDaMoves]

Don't panic OP.

The first few sessions will be a dance through of basics.

My DC have just gone into sixth form at one if the most academically selective schools in the UK and fully expect to have to a few ground covering sessions.

[KevinAndMe]

First day at school yesterday.
Dc1 had maths and the teacher asked them to do ... Column additions with two and 3 digits. Column subtraction with 2 and 3 digits again.
Dc1 had fully mastered that in Y3....

I really hope the streaming will help!

[KevinAndMe]

What sort of challenges did she do trout?

[troutsprout]

Dd's secondary (state academy) teach to a level rather than age in the core subjects and then in more traditional ability sets (just with her own year) for the other subjects . She went into the top mixed yr 7/8 class last year for maths . She did not seem to go over old primary stuff at all and it was full on hit the ground running as soon as she started.
Last year ( year7) was the best school year she's had for a long time.
They also teach year 9/10 & 11's together in GCSE classes
This structure is part of the reason we chose the school .
Primary school was difficult once she got into juniors and she had to find challenges outside of school to keep her buzzing. This helped a lot.

[KevinAndMe]

Agree about keeping them interested.
I think it also depends on what is their strong subject. It's hard to learn about chemistry it physics wo someone teaching you some basics.

[Mistigri]

I don't think my daughter was ever really challenged by coursework in early secondary, but it didn't seem to matter that much. She has always found stimulation outside of school (music and writing mainly). She has never been stretched in class, but a couple of her teachers providing a broader challenge outside the formal curriculum (for eg she participated in a history competition last year, which involved writing a dissertation on concentration camp survivors' experiences after the end of WW2 - she did this with two other students both of whom are probably gifted).

She has just got fairly exceptional grades in her school leaving diploma (we are not in the UK) so a laissez faire approach does not appear to have done any harm.

For me this issue at this age is not pushing them to advance ever further in the curriculum, but to ensure that they don't disengage. It's been harder with my DS (going into Y9) than his objectively much more gifted sister. The difference seems to be that he is less of an autodidact his sister, he wants to be taught whereas she wants to learn.

[KevinAndMe]

Bumping for the evening crowd

[KevinAndMe]

The idea of setting his own target is a good one actually. I'm going to dig that one out too.

[KevinAndMe]

Not boring at all. It sounds exactely what we are doing at home!

DH and I have different strengths so Dh is all about explaining engineering, going on about history and the industrial revolution etc...
I do the more general scientific stuff, medicine, politics and general knowledge.
And yes we do A LOT of museums etc too.

dc2 seems to be coping with it and is clearly still taking a lot out of it too.

[var123]

I don't for maths. However, after I posted it got me thinking what his target will be this year (Y9)? I suspect he will be given a level 8a again. So, I wondering if I could set him his own private target of a A at GCSE (i.e. take the test at home next April or May using a past paper)? I'll see if he'll go for that and I'll offer to teach him.

As to the rest, we keep him well-supplied with books. He likes documentaries so we watch those with him. DH has deep general knowledge, so they talk all the time about geography/ politics/ history/ medicine / scientific breakthroughs etc. DS1 loves talking about stuff like that, so DH can do it and I'll join in sometimes (and try not to act bored for the rest!).

We do day trips and usually find something to talk about. e.g. we were in Lynmouth, Devon last week and DH was talking with DS about the geography and about the flood in 1953. Then I said something in French and DS2 couldn't understand it so we went through the verb "etre".

God we sound boring when I read that back! DS1 loves it though and DS2 just zones out and starts thinking about his latest video game. I do not think we hot house our children, but when I look at that list, and remember we've been doing this for years, maybe its not surprising that both our sons are doing well at school?

[KevinAndMe]

var how do you keep you dc involved in his learning?

[KevinAndMe]

*var1238 yep I'm seen the same thing happening with not wanting to be the 'geek'.

Up to the point that I'm now insisting I am a geek too and that's OK.

[KevinAndMe]

SheGot yes dc1 is all excited by the timetable etc...

The other thing I'm hoping is that dc1 will find children with similarish abilities that he can relate to. He is very good at socialising but basically he feels the odd one out and that he has no one to share what really excites him (apart from us, parents, but that can't be the same ).
That then creates another set of problems, ie not saying things by fear of looking ike the 'nerdy one' again.

[var123]

I can tell you about one outstanding secondary comprehensive school. However I have no idea what other schools do, except that this school tends to do whatever is considered best practice so other schools probably do something similar.

Ds1 is going into year 9 this week. He was top set all the way through primary school, and never really challenged.
Primary school tended to aim for 2 sublevels of progress per year, but they were happy enough with 1.5 and would even accept 1 (plateauing). Whereas, secondary school looks for 3 sublevels.
This was great for DS1 in year 7. In maths, he was a 6 in year 6, but in year 7, his target was 7a. The pupils were split into sets and the work was definitely more challenging than primary school. He got the 7a.

The following year, Y8, the target was 8b. He got 8a after 4 months. However, now some of the top set students were labouring away still stuck on level 7, so it became a mixed ability class once again, just like at primary school. DS1 was bored and unchallenged for most of the year.

It was as if someone had opened the valve just a little bit wider, he'd responded to the challenge and now he had to learn to wait for the others to catch up again (just like primary school).

The head of department and the teachers spoke of differentiation within the top set, but, just like primary school, it wasn't really differentiated work: just more of the same offered in a slightly more complex way. So, DS1's experience was more or less the same as it had been in primary

Science, English, MFL and PE were also set by year 8, and it was the same story there as in maths.

At Ds1's school the top set get less homework than the lower sets - actually they get none. However, I hear parents of children in the lower sets talk of three hours per night. I suspect that the explanation is that each set gets taught the same things at the same time with some classwork and some homework. However, the top set do their homework in the lesson. This enables the school to move children between sets without the need for catching up.

The big difference at secondary are the school clubs. They are like a visit to the science museum, and the only place where DS1 can access something new. That worked well in year 7, but by year 8, the need to avoid being labelled a "geek" got in the way.

[KevinAndMe]

I fully agree with gaps in knowledge! And not just with maths but also in science. Sometimes, too, he has understood things not quite right but of course, no one has ever corrected him.

I'll have a look at the two sites you mentioned and see if I can find something that will interest dc1. Would they offer things where you can go deeper into the subject but wo neede new knowledge (eg principles are the same but would need a 3 or 2 step approach rather than 1 or 2 steps ?)

The school has specified parents should come and chat with teachers if they think the child is struggling or finding things too easy .... that didn't fall into death ears!