Wheat free diet and excessive wind

[IlanaK]

I am not bothering to change my name for this even though it is somewhat embarrasing.

I have recently changed to a wheat free diet (due to baby reacting to my breastmilk). This has meant an increase in other grains in my diet (particularly rye and oats). Since doing this, I have had excessive wind. I am sure it is related to this as I remember a similar thing from a long time ago when I started eating too much rye bread toast in the mornings (it was so yummy!).

So, is this normal? And is there anything i can do about it as it is not much fun.

[misi]

that is another good sign that is is low acidity and not chronic low.
different foods and food groups cause different raising in HCA levels. thats the problem with low acidity, there is often no one cause of it but a set of circumstances and a downward spiral, a bit like a catch 22 situation.
when you are missing a food group that stimulates HCA, HCA production reduces which means that your body is less able to digest those foods so ''pushes'' you towards food you can digest with lower acid levels like your sugar cravings, the more sugary foods you eat, the less HCA is needed, less HCA means your body goes for the foods it can digest and so on etc!!

protiens for instance need HCA to break them down and then a protease to finish it off, proteases cannot work properly though on protiens not partly broken down already which is why your amino acid absorption is low. sugars do not really need much HCA involvement as they only need 1 or 2 conversions to be absorbed efficiently whereas protiens need about 8 conversions to be digested (and I hope thumbwitch can correct me on this as I can't remember the proper figure!!). this means sugar is highly digestible by the body even in low acid environments as it is the most basic of foods and is why you crave it sometimes.

bitters are good though but as you are under a nutritionist, and on a particular plan of action, don't do anything off your own back as it can upset the plan. I expect you will have or be getting a diet plan for the future which should have a bitters element to it, but my guess is, that once you start the HCA therapy, you will notice the difference and feel so much better!!

[shortcircuit]

yes, thanks Misi.

I do feel quite cross though, because, in the main, my diet is very good.

[misi]

ok, what I mean is that the usual causes of chronic low acidity are medical conditions that are identifiable. vitiligo is a medical condition but its role in low acidity is not confirmed but is more thought of as a symptom of not a cause of low acidity.

chronic low acidity is often to do with damage to the stomach wall whereby the cells that normally combine CO2, water, sodium chloride or potassium chlorides to make the HCA on demand cannot do so. this usually has the knock on effect that to counter the usual production and therefore lowering of pH in the stomach, less pancreatic juices (the alkaline buffer/counter to low pH) are produced and secreted into the intestines which means even less digestive ability and as the pancreatic juices are not made in high quantities, the low level of acid in the stomach actually increases the level of acid in the intestines which cannot cope like the stomach can and therefore can cause the quite possible severe damage.
non chronic low levels of acid cause not quite so wide a divergence in pH balance and therefore do less damage and can be repairable.

by slowly increasing the acid in the stomach by supplementation, the cells in the stomach wall can be encouraged to produce more acid themselves, I call it the jealousy reaction . the stomach is prodded in action by rising acid levels and the more acid there is the more efficient it can get, like cleaning the limescale from a kettle, once you raise acid levels, the limescale gunk is stripped away from the inner surfaces and elemnt allowing the kettle to boil water more efficiently. if left the limescale will eventually stop the kettle from working. keeping with this analogy, if the element of the kettle that produces the heat is broken or other damaged, then no matter what, the heat will not be produced and this going back to the stomach is more like the chronic low acid problem.

if you have chronic low acidity, you would certainly be ill a lot and have rubbish skin and not so good hair, and many other problems too.

does that help?

[shortcircuit]

oh not sure I understand your last sentance ?

I think my main problem is vitiligo which I've had for about 15 years. I have the low white blood count. Feel the cold. Windy after food. Vertical ridges on finger nails, although my nails themselves are strong without white flecks.

On the plus side, I'm rarely ill, my skin is healthy looking aside from the vitiligo. My hair is good.

I eat a good diet, although I'm not big on oily fish (was a pesco-vegetarian for 15 years eating salmon/tuna ) I now eat, fairly infrequently, organic chicken.

I will now reasearch bitter foods !

[misi]

shortcircuit, I know you said you about not appropriate to post your probs so I don't know your history.
low acidity when chronic is very debilitating and can have some quite specific major problems. if you are very ill and in poor shape, then I may agree with you, if not then the chances are you have been caught in time.

I am glad they are vertical ridges not transverse, (thats a good specific sign of poor nutrient absorption, as transverse is something different but a possible victim of low acidity and its accompanying probs).

many people can live with low acidity levels for years and have some noticable probs but nothing that docs are worried about too much and don't affect in a major way and this is what I hope is your situation. a lot of low stomach acidity can be traced to the lack of bitter foods in our modern diet. bitter foods are the ones used as appetisers and encourage, promote, start the digestion process by inducing secretion of digestive enzymes, the major one being hydrochloric acid. thats why low acidity is more a western thing rather than eastern or african thing
chronic low acidity is usually a quicker surfacing of probs and has a specific medical cause, so from onset of diminishing acid to major symptoms is a lot quicker than if you had just low levels, does that make sense?

[shortcircuit]

misi, I'm not sure I have been caught early enough, I've had symptons for at least 15 years. I hope I can be repaired.

Interesting stuff, thanks

[thumbwitch]

Wow, 37 drugs, that's massive -I'm not so surprised the GP agreed to sit down with you - that was probably quite a high percentage of his annual drug budget!

[misi]

you could say she thinks she knows it all we have some heated discussions sometimes

know what you mean about the type II diabetes too. my mum had this same problem. she was diagnosed with typeII and an appointment was made to see a dietitician around 6 weeks after which was not ideal I thought, so I got onto her about her diet. 6 weeks later, my mum asked me to go with her and I honestly sat and laughed in the room when the dietician was spouting her wares. I pointed out about the high carb content of some of the foods listed, and I am sure you will know about parsnips, they were listed as a very good food for a diabetic!!
suffice to say I persuaded mum to ditch the list and follow my diet plan for her, she was stable for 3 years, with very good glucose levels until my dad died and within a week she was on insulin .

ps, I had a client once who asked about a herb but I knew he was on some meds so I asked what. he said he would bring his repeat prescription in to show me as he was not sure. when he next came in, he had a prescription list that was 12 pages long!! 37 drugs he was on. not all were listed in my drug finder so I called his GP to ask. turned out that he needed 7 drugs, so many more were to counter the effects of the first 7 and even more were to counter the effects of the counter effects, amazingly, 2 drugs were ''just in case''.

the GP in the town was suprisingly co-operative and all 3 of us sat down and went through the drugs and treatments together, last I heard he had dropped down to 5 drugs and was feeling so much better. added into those 5 drugs were just 3 herbal preps and a change of diet and exercise regime.

can you imagine that surgerys drug reps bonus that year oops!!

[thumbwitch]

whoo, 2 whole days, that doc must think she knows all there is to know about it.

I find myself getting quite irritated about the whole topic really - especially because the well-known faces and names give the field a bad name, thus allowing the cynical to deride the whole concept with seeming impunity.

And, whatever anyone says, dietitians just don't have the same usefulness in some areas because they are not trained to look at the whole medical history and treat the body as a whole. My poor mum, God rest her, had a colostomy and when she was diagnosed with Type II diabetes, was sent to the dietitian who couldn't marry the two conditions together and so gave up!!!
And I've lost count of the number of people I know with Type II diabetes who are given the "diabetic diet" sheet, which indicates that a large amount of carbs should be eaten - absolutely right for anyone on insulin and absolutely WRONG for anyone with Type II and not yet on medication!

Don't worry misi about your touch of cynicism - I heard it suggested somewhere that the Big Pharma won't be happy until everyone in the world is on at least one drug, and preferably 3 - one for something, one to counter the side-effects of the first and another for good measure. Conspiracy theories here I come!

[misi]

thumbwitch, years ago trainee doctors spent 30 mins of their 7 years training on nutrition I have been told, now that has increased to 2 hours, although one doctor I know said she spent 2 days ''doing nutrition''!!
on the other hand, in my 5 years training I have spent roughly a year on nutrition/digestion.

it appears modern medicine and medics who take the hippocratic oath (another) are trained more to treat the symptoms than the causes. in other countries, the relationship between natural and modern medicine is more of a partnership, here and in some other countries, naturals are seen as the devils work and has to be derided and put down.

One of the things that amazes me are the rush of scientific discoveries of late.

the latest one I have seen is about rosehips.

apparently scientists have discovered that a compound in the skin of rosehips helps to stimulate joint repair by increasing collagen production etc etc etc. this is a major break through and it will not be long before some pharmaceutical company has genetically altered the compound so as to patent it and start marketing it to the NHS for £millions, trouble is, most decent glusosamine or joint care products in the natural health sector already have rosehips in as this was known by us in the natural health care profession to help joints many many years ago.

I am a touch cynical today but money is a driving force. gaviscon/antacids are the most over and mis prescribed drugs in the world, billions are made on these compounds. they reduce staomach acidity as you know, but the fact is, more people suffer with low acidity (not chronic but enough to cause probs) in todays world due to our diet then they do with high acid, yet as the symptoms of low acid can lead to acid reflux (won't go into this as I am sure it is basic knowledge for you) and thats where the problem lies, simple diagnosing would show low acid levels but as HCA cannot be altered to allow patenting and is usually a longer term treatment rather than the quick fix antacids give, it is not given a thought until it becomes chronic and has caused damage although shortcircuit appears to have been caught early enough before she starts to worry!!

[thumbwitch]

not exactly but i teach them. and work for one. and until the middle of this year, sub-edited a journal for them.
yes you are right about the gut - i don't know why so many hc professionals have such ishoos with the concept that diet can help - even Hippocrates knew that!

[shortcircuit]

thumbwitch, are you a NT ?

It's interesting that my dr poo pooed (excuse the pun) my visit. Instead she wants me to take ad's, whereas I think this is the way forward. Good health starts in the gut !

[thumbwitch]

no no, shortcircuit, they are trained professionals used to working with poo - yours wouldn't be any worse than others.

yes, if you have low stomach acid, you won't digest your proteins properly which can cause all sorts of interesting knock on effects, including a reduced ability to absorb zinc, which is essential for the production of stomach acid, and so the cycle continues.

[shortcircuit]

oh goodness, I don't think anyone has been bad enough to receive a stool sample from me!

Yes, appreciate not trying too many things, however I am very interested in how it all works.

I understand I'm not digesting proteins - I am extremely windy within minutes of eating

[misi]

can understand the amino acid test and the low blood sugar.

I would also reccommend a stool sample test too if this has not already been done, ask your nutritionist about them, very informative about what is going on in your digestive system and can tell what you are digesting and what you are not. also picks up on bacteria growth like HP and candida to name just 2, as a nutritionist as well as a herbalist, I often reccommend stool tests as a matter of course as it will tell me more about what is going on than everything else combined!!

[thumbwitch]

If you have seen a BANT-approved nutritional therapist then you should follow what they say rather than take extraneous advice from us on here (although herbalists always have a different slant so their advice can be a useful addition).

It is a bad idea to try too many different things at once, especially if your nut therapist is putting you on some kind of regime, as what you do might interfere with the regime in an unguessable manner.

I love Dove's farm spelt flour Roman army bread - quite flat but very tasty!

[shortcircuit]

BTW as I have been advised to do wheat free, I have made bread with Doves farm wheat & gluten free white bread flour, which is wheat & gluten free. I followed the instructions on the back of the pack (rather than the bread maker programme) & it's actually quite nice.

[shortcircuit]

thanks for replying.

I have seen a nutritional therapist, who has recommended this for me. I am justing waiting for the details & it's been suggested I have an amino acid test.

I've had medical blood tests & have a lwbc. I also have vertical ridges on my nails, failed the bicarb test. Obviously, lots more, but not sure it's appropriate to post :- )

I suffer from low blood sugar, the crave/ sugar/crash syndrome + VV bad PMT. Am just trying to increase my efa's too.

Welcome any/all suggestions.

[thumbwitch]

IlanaK I totally understand your point of view on gluten-free breads - most of them you could build houses with - but I promise this one is different, nice and light, so if you ever do need to go gluten free, bear it in mind.

[misi]

shortcircuit yes I am.
it all depends on the severity. the last HCA therapy I did took the client 2 weeks which was rather quick.

who is 'giving' you the dosage to take?

HCA therapy is not a single dose taken every day if you are trying to retrain your gut to produce its own HCA again, are you just going to be supplementing to treat the symptoms or are you going for the cause and to retrain?

[IlanaK]

Thanks for the information - very interesting to read.

I went back to spelt bread this morning and the wind disappeared. So it is obviously something about the rye that does not agree with me. My ds was no worse so I think spelt is ok for him too (through my milk).

I don't like the gluten free breads and I really don't want to go gluten free if I can avoid it. So spelt it is for now.

[shortcircuit]

misi, are you a hebalist ? how long would you say it would take to restore low stomach acid ?

Sorry for hijack, btw.

I have vitiligo, with low stomach acid & just waiting for the dosage of HCA to be given (along with efa's)

[thumbwitch]

the gluten in oats has been found to be substantially different to the gluten in wheat, rye and barley. This is due to a series of sub-proteins in each grain - in coeliac's disease (NOT saying that is anything to do with you but it is explanatory) it has been discovered that the lesions are caused by a partially digested portion of gliadin (from wheat), which is very similar to one found in secalins (from rye) and hordeins (from barley) but NOT found in the avenins (from oats). In other words, gluten from wheat, rye and barley can all cause coeliacs disease lesions in the gut, but oats don't seem to in the same way - even the coeliacs disease website has varying advice on oats. So if you are trying to be GLUTEN free you might want to skip the rye as well. I believe that spelt does not contain the same portion of gliadin that causes the problems either.

About the wind - oats contain a lot of lovely indigestible-by-us-but-our-gut-bacteria-love-them complex carbohydrates. This causes gas. Many probiotics also cause gas. So do many prebiotics. Is the gas particularly noxious? or just uncomfortable? After a while your gut flora will adjust to the new diet and settle down but if you can't handle it, reduce your oat intake a little.

If you are still determined to eat bread, the spelt bread is one option of course, but there is also this stuff, which you can buy in Waitrose (I haven't seen it in a Tesco store yet) and it's ok for toast and sandwiches. Not heavy at all, but a bit dry and crumbly.

[misi]

hydrochloric acid supplementation is not reccommended without strict supervision for women not breast feeding let alone those who are. unless done correctly this can cause more harm than good and if not done effectively does no good at all. it is a common falicy that if you take a betaine pill it will work, it won't. it may say on the bottle take one with each meal, but this is not a theraputic dose to correct the problem if it is low acid and will do no good at all. by changing your diet and taking friendly bugs, your stomach acid will correct itself eventually if this is the problem.

also as babies are born in an alkaline state and mum will be acidic till up to 3 months after breast feeding stops(this is the greatest cause of pre acclampsia, the acid/alkaline imbalance) and babies stay alkaline till they stop breast feeding and for up to 3 months after, supplementing with HCA whilst breastfeeding is not something a doc will reccommend (not that they use HCA supps anyway as a treatment) but none of my fellow herbalists would sanction HCA supps either for a breastfeeding mother as it could ''taint'' the milk at best, disrupt feeding or worse.

[shortcircuit]

drink a glass of water with a tsp of bicarbonate. If you don't burp, you'll be suffering from low stomach acid. Google Betaine Hydrochloride

Otherwise, maybe it's just a change of diet ?