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General health

Vitamin D deficiency probably related to restrictive diet... Any experts?

34 replies

HariboFrenzy · 12/01/2017 17:03

I've just been told my vit d levels are low. I've not spoken to the Dr yet so don't know the exact levels. The reason I was tested in the first place is I've been dairy and egg free for over 12 months as I'm breastfeeding DS who is allergic. Main symptom was poor memory.

I've googled vit d deficiency but can't find that much, especially about it affecting memory. Given my restricted diet is it likely that calcium will be affected too?

How long will it take for me to notice a difference?

Does this mean my ds is also likely to be affected too? Should he be tested too?? He is 19 months.

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Nettleskeins · 09/04/2018 22:14

people with a very good diet can still have a vitamin d deficiency unless they are eating fish oil all the time. It mostly through sunshine April to Sept 11-3pm, not diet.

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Nettleskeins · 09/04/2018 22:11

bumping this thread because vit d so important and so underestimated by most of the population.

Haribo, I hope you got your levels up to at least 100, 36 is very low. My GP recommends 70-100 at least. I take 2000iu a day and initially I was prescribed a large loading dose of much much more (cannot remember now, but in region of 40,000 or 20,000 a week for a few weeks)

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PinkSwimGoggles · 21/01/2017 17:09

and boney fish, like kippers (that hardly anyone eats nowadays)
we also used to get the spinal discs from between halibut bones.

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PinkSwimGoggles · 18/01/2017 11:05

until fairly recently people used fish oil to supplement. and in some nordic countries they still do (norway and iceland come to mind)
some of us might remember that awful spoon of cod liver oil that we were forced to take...

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Bettertobehealthy · 18/01/2017 10:55

haribo Yes your blood calcium of 2.25_mmol_/l looks good ! This show that your parathyroid hormone system is working properly.

Let me explain - blood calcium is always in a tight range 2.1 to 2.6 , unless you are desperately ill. It has to be there , in order to keep your nerves and muscles working correctly. If your blood calcium becomes low, your body will make adjustments by increasing the parathyroid hormone (PTH) to instruct the kidneys to make more 1,25D3 hormone which instructs the bowel to absorb more of the calcium you have ingested. However , this increase in parathryoid (PTH) ALSO , in some circumstances, will instruct your bones to release calcium into your blood, i.e. de-mineralise the bones, in order to keep blood calcium where it needs to be.
Now consider what would happen , if the bowel cannot absorb the calcium you need from your food , then the bones would supply the extra that you need. It is this response which could lead , to osteopenia, osteoporosis, osteomalacia etc. It is not the only reason , but one of several. The ability of the bowel to supply calcium from your food , depends upon the amount of calcium you ingest and the level of vitD hormone 1,25D3 , that is present , which depends upon how much VitD3 you have. It has been measured that you need a blood level of at least 80 nmol/l 25D3 to optimise the regulation of absorption of calcium from the bowel. by keeping your level there or above ( pref at least 120 ) , you reduce the chances of those bone diseases later in life. If you are short of vitaminD , or calcium , your body may respond by overly raising parathyroid (PTH) levels, this would be called secondary hyperparathyroidism, and is not a good situation to be in , as it could lead to an excessive increase in the speed of bone remodelling, which could lead to those weaker bones/fractures etc etc. in later life.

here endeth the lecture ....lol.

Hope this is useful, best of luck

BTBH

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HariboFrenzy · 17/01/2017 21:55

Thanks BTBH I knew there was a link between bit and calcium but was fuzzy on the details! I've been dairy free for almost 17 months now but calcium levels were apparently fine (serum calcium 2.25 nmol/L) although I've no idea of the normal range. Does that sound ok to you?

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Bettertobehealthy · 17/01/2017 21:33

Here is a short video clip ....vimeo.com/92747342 , with a few facts and figures re Vit D.


yes icy , there were more sources of Vit d in days gone by . 2000 IU in a piece of pie made with pig lard..!! See the video . There is NO vitamin D in cows milk , or butter , however , unless specifically fortified, which will be shown on the label. Grass fed cows will produce vitamin K2 in their milk , and butter. Thus grass fed is better than cheap corn fed butters from the Vit K2 point of view. So, butters like Kerrygold , or Anchor would be a better choice.

haribo I notice that you are dairy free, please make sure you get plenty of calcium in your food. If you have low vitamin D , you will not be able to absorb it very efficiently from your food. When you reach about 80 nmol/litre Vit D, absorption becomes maximally efficient. However , if you are not consuming much , then there might not be enough to absorb. If you are breastfeeding , then you will need plenty..! Sardines with bone in , plenty of dark greens etc, are just a couple of good sources. The greens will also provide magnesium, a known co-factor required to utilise the Vitamin D that you do have. Vitamin D enables you to regulate the amount of calcium you absorb , to your exact requirement. It does not make you absorb too much.


Best of luck

BTBH

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HariboFrenzy · 17/01/2017 20:52

@Bettertobehealthy thank you so much. I was initially thinking to supplement with 3000 iu but as it shouldn't hurt I will follow you advice and try 5000. I guess if there's no improvement at 3 months I will need to go back to GP. Hoping if it is hormonal it's something very short lived as planning on TTC in the second half of this year, eek!

Icy I agree with you. Butter and animal fat somehow seem more 'natural' than some of the scary stuff added to food. Being dairy free has really opened my eyes as to how much junk is added to foods

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icyfront · 17/01/2017 20:40

Bettertobehealthy - there's one point in your most recent post that answered something I've found puzzling. People in northern Europe, at least the upper classes, have been wearing clothing from head to foot for centuries, although they didn't use sunscreen. So, were they all vit d deficient back then? But: consumption of vegetable oil rather than animal fat containing VitD must be a contributory factor. There's a current thread elsewhere where people are reminiscing about their younger days in the 1960s, and many posters recall the "bread and dripping", which I also remember very well.

Up until fairly recently, people used butter or lard for cakes and pastry; spread butter on their bread; fried food in butter or lard; a good beef joint/steak had fat marbled throughout it; people ate offal such as liver and kidneys. And then came the obesity crisis, and all that was to be off the menu if we wanted to be healthy. But that reduced the amount of vit D, and increased the amount of sugar in bought foodstuffs because low-fat is fairly tasteless. It seems that only recently it's being proposed that the obesity problem is related to sugar consumption rather than animal fats.

I've read threads here about what's acceptable for toddlers and young children, especially in packed lunches in school, and it seems that it's low-fat all the way. I wonder what health problems might result from that. My DGS is dairy-free because of CMPI, but his mum is very good at doing research so ensures he's getting all the nutrients he needs. One of her friends has been vegetarian since a teenager, but has always been good at doing research, so also knows the alternatives. But many people don't do research because they don't feel the need to do that. They follow official guidelines, and it's increasingly obvious there are issues with those.

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Bettertobehealthy · 17/01/2017 19:47

yes haribo , 1000 IU should raise your level by 25 nmol/litre in 2 to 3 months. In other words equilibrium is reached , with no other changes in intake after about 3 months of supplementation. On average , the response is 1000 IU per 25 nanomol/litre. However response can vary , if you do not respond as an average person , it may be more , or less.
Some people cannot absorb very well when taking oil dissolved gel capsules, in these cases it may be better to try a sublingual spray , where absorption is direct into the bloodstream , and not depending upon the digestive system. (This may be analagous to B12 food intake or supplementation , where absorption in the gut is limited by pernicious anaemia - an autoimmune gut problem)

As your level was 36 , then many researches would probably indicate that you take about 5000 IU per day on an ongoing basis. Check your level in 3 months. If it is anywhere around 140 , then great , keep it up. If it is markedly higher , then maybe drop a thousand or two. If it is markedly lower, then swap to sublingual, or try a couple of thousand extra.

It is practically impossible to become toxic with the dosage levels I am talking about ....HOWEVER , if you have sarcoidosis , hyperparathyroidism , or granulomatosis disease , then you must consult a doctor before taking anything. These are rare , very rare conditions.

Try and get some sunshine on your skin. BUT never burn. You cannot make vitamin D from sunshine before mid-April here in the UK. Winter sunshine does not contain UVB radiation. Please have a look at my other threads..!

Hope this helps.

And , yes , there are mechanisms that might cause memory loss with low vitamin D. Please have a look at the research work of Sir Micheal Berridge concerning brain cells and calcium levels. However as a young mum, it is much more likely that memory inconsistencies will be a temporary hormonal imbalance or something of that nature, I would have thought.

An additional benefit , is that your milk will contain VitD3 , passed on to your baby. if you take 5000 IU per day. Have a look at the vitdassociation website , to which I linked above !

If you are under medical supervision , please let them know what you are intending.

BTBH

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HariboFrenzy · 17/01/2017 18:47

So I have a copy of my results now, and vit d is 36. Am I right in thinking that 1000 raises the level by 25? (Going by crappy memory and can't remember the units).

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Bettertobehealthy · 17/01/2017 18:18

It is good to see how many people are finding out the benefits of vitamin D . Your own health is dependent upon your body's level.

VitD3 becomes a hormone , unlike other vitamins. It becomes a hormone that is substrate limited . That means your body cannot make more of it ( if required) unless you have enough precursor , available to all your cells. VitaminD3( from supplement or UVB,sun exposure) , is the precursor, 25D3 is the intermediate step, that is measured in your blood by doctors tests, finally 1,25D3 is the Vitamin D hormone form. Your body orchestrates the conversions in a fairly complicated interaction with other signalling compounds. ( one of which is parathyroid hormone)

As the hormone form, the final conversion to a compound called 1,25 D3, enables your cells to read genes and thus produce the products of, or change the behaviour of those cells as is required. If that process is hindered , by low VitD3, at any step, then illness of various types can result. Both short latency ( rickets in children, etc ) or long latency such as osteoporosis, osteopenia , osteomalacia , autoimmune problems, MS, cancers etc in adults. At least 2000 genes are affected, that is about 10% of your entire genome. Myriad bodily processes are affected.

Throughout human evolution , our blood levels of 25D3 were in the region of 120 -140 , it is only when we caused the production of VitD3 , to be curtailed by changing our environment, less sun, migrating North where sunlight is weaker, covering up our skin , etc etc that we have now engineered a situation that results in many /most of us being low in a vital hormone. Taking a long view, Europeans moved into Northern climes about 10,000 years ago , at this juncture , we had a white skin mutation in our genes which allowed us to make more VitD3 from the very limited sunlight, this allowed us to somewhat better survive where other primates cannot. All other primates live below 33 degrees latitude where UVB in sunlight is stronger.. Our physiology developed at low latitudes and if changes in our environment causes our blood levels of a vital hormone to reduce, you can of course expect consequences. Persons that live outside a lot, in that kind of ancient sunny environment achieve those levels. As Westerners ,we generally do not. That is why doctors very often say , "we are all low"...or something like that. If you put a Westerner into that kind of ancient environment his blood levels rises , exactly as expected, to those ancient levels..

It is the realisation of the above situation , by some, that has allowed us to understand how and what levels of vitamin d are required , how sunlight or supplements or artificial sunlight can be used to replicate the healthy levels that we need. It is a mistake to think that just because most people have a similar low level, that level is all that is required. Currently, in the UK , we expect to see blood levels of 25D3 of about 30 -70 , depending upon time of year. Many people are even below that. They have an increased risk of many diseases. Diet , in general, cannot supply all that we need.

One of the most convincing arguments for the above explanation for Vit D deficiencies is the conundrum of human milk. Throughout evolution , until relatively recently , human milk contained every nutrient required for baby. If it did not, then we would not be here.
But now, in modern times, human milk is deficient in Vitamin D generally down to about 25 IU per litre. ( UK ) People living in that ancient environment nowadays have levels around 400 IU per litre. This level is exactly what we recognise to be the optimum.( Incidentally - This figure of 400 IU is duplicated by formula milk.) . We should be asking ourselves the Question - Howcome .. ? The answer is that modern mothers do not have sufficient VitD3 in their milk , because their intake is insufficient. The problem has become worse in the last few hundred years , and in the last 50 years much worse than even that. Indoor living, sunscreen, overzealous avoidance of sun , consumption of vegetable oil rather than animal fat containing VitD etc etc.

It is important to grasp the whole picture , do not suddenly bask in intense sunlight on a foreign holiday , if you are white skinned. Burning is not beneficial , but is harmful. Try to ensure you get a modest dose of VitD3 daily , that is what your body needs, whether breastfeeding or not , you require enough VitD3 to enable your body ( cells) to maintain normal functioning. Levels of 120 – 140 of 25D3 in the blood will do that …!

Here I am trying to explain what is happening , and why many people with a western lifestyle are low in Vitamin D . I hope this is helpful.

BTBH

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HariboFrenzy · 16/01/2017 15:26

So I didn't speak to the GP today, and when I rang to chase up was told that my vit d levels were 'on the low side's and that I can buy supplements over the counter. Well I know this, I wanted to know what dosage to take!

I'm also concerned that levels 'on the low side' are having such an affect on my memory? Does this sound right?

I asked for a print out of my results and the secretary said she would have to check with the doctor?? Presumably the other results were ok as they weren't mentioned but interesting to see what they were.

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Yddraigoldragon · 13/01/2017 18:08

Polly if I understand it right, vit k2 is the missing link between d3 and calcium. A bit like d3 releases the calcium, K2 moves it to where it needs to go for good use. It was a while ago that I looked it up, so this could be bonkers.

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G1raffePicnic · 13/01/2017 12:58

I feel like that iheart. Don't think I've improved in a month. Will go back in a month though.

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IHeartKingThistle · 13/01/2017 11:01

I was diagnosed with low vit D in the autumn. I thought I was really ill and was sleeping all the time. Couldn't believe it was a vitamin deficiency.

It took a few weeks to kick in but I'm a different woman now. Get the spray vitamin D.

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Mehfruittea · 13/01/2017 10:52

I should have said I'm under the care of th hospital now and they have prescribed all my supplements. I have b12 injections, a weekly high dose vit d, daily multi vits and twice daily calcium. This is on top of extensive pain relief for widespread joint pain - a major symptom of deficiency.

Also have EDS and so have no idea if the pain is due to the now irreversible damage due to deficiencies I have had, or due to genetic condition that never impacted me a great deal before deficiency began.

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PollyPerky · 13/01/2017 08:36

Oh and I eat eggs daily - one every day and 2 some days.

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PollyPerky · 13/01/2017 08:34

There is controversy over taking calcium supplements. I was diagnosed with quite advanced osteopenia in my late 40s. I had no risk factors though am petite (under 8st) which is a risk factor. (I'm not anorexic before anyone suggests that and have a normal BMI)

I did breastfeed both DCs and my son was intolerant to dairy so for 6 months I excluded it from my diet, but on top of that I also excluded it for myself for many years as I had eczema and it seemed to aggravate it.

I had my Vit D checked at the time I had my first bone scan and it came back as 'normal' though don't know the figure.

I had been supplementing with Osteocare- 800 mgs daily (calcium) but it also contains trace minerals and some Vit D.

However, there has been research showing calcium supps can cause heart disease (connected to hardening of the arteries by large intake all at once of a supplement). I've reduced my supplement to 400mgs (1 tablet) and am now eating dairy again. Not a huge amount but one pot of organic plain yoghurt a day, a small portion of cheese and I try to include plant milks (almond which is fortified) or lactose free milk.

I also try to get as much calcium and Vit D and calcium) through foods as i can- tinned sardines once week, salmon, almond butter, other nuts and green veg daily.

I'm now taking 2 Vit D tablets daily- twice the 'suggested' dose on the pot.

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Mehfruittea · 13/01/2017 08:27

I was diagnosed anemic in pregnancy and tested vit d deficient, but was not told. I found out after birth and we both started vit d supplements as they assumed baby would have some risk. I asked for calcium levels to be checked an was assured everything fine. 5 yrs on I have hyper parathyroidism. I'm on correct treatment now but was only recently diagnosed,being calcium deficient for 5 yrs. any vit d issues should also be looked at within context of calcium levels.

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Yddraigoldragon · 13/01/2017 07:58

BTBH I also started taking D3 following your threads, feel pretty good now. I get my levels checked and keep it at the high end of the range, around 200 :)
I read something a while back about K2 so added that in, also calcium.

What do you think about the need for K2 alongside D especially if calcium is supplemented?

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NewYearNewLife53 · 13/01/2017 07:38

Bettertobehealthy, you're giving brilliant information here. Thanks! I've just looked at your other thread but am getting confused by all the nos, etc. Could you by any chance just list here in shortform :

  • how much Vit D approx a 50 yr old, olive skinned fairly indoors lifestyle 10 stone woman might be recommended to take?


  • is it advised to take it with both calcium and magnesium - and can these be adequately got from diet or is a supplement necessary?


Thanks
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G1raffePicnic · 13/01/2017 07:13

I was diagnosed vitamin D deficient a month ago. I'm having 2 months on 3200 and then another blood test.

I'm not sure my problems are related (if they were most women would be depressed, achey, too tired to function) but I'm trying to get them higher.

I also wonder, who sets the "recommended amount". If most women and children don't meet it how come it's not lower.

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IDismyname · 13/01/2017 07:07

I'm on Vit D supplements. No advice on combining it with BF, but it's such a valuable vitamin that so many of us lack.

I think you can get sprays from Holland and Barratt.

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HariboFrenzy · 13/01/2017 06:57

Thanks for replies. BTBH thank you, will read those links.

Icyfront those reference ranges are helpful, thanks.

Bugsylugs in your opinion then, is poor memory unrelated to low vit d levels? It has deteriorated badly, to the point it has scared me if I'm honest. Should I be pressing this with the GP?

SortAllTheThings I don't know my levels yet. I had 3 missed calls and a voicemail from the drs surgery yesterday and when I called back the receptionist wasn't able to view my results, she just said the GP had noted I needed an appointment and 'it was vitamin D.'. I will ask when I have the appointment.

As an aside, the GP told me I was being tested for a wide range of things and not to call for results for 2 weeks - I only had it done Monday and they called yesterday!

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