Building up a bigger picture

[Tinkerisdead]

Hi, there doesnt seem to be much activity in the family history section so I am hoping the geneologists lurk on here to help me.

I started doing my DD's family tree when she was born nearly 12 months ago (sob that she is nearly a year..different thread)

Anyway, I have managed to get about 6-8 generations back across the different bloodlines etc. But on one part I have hit a true brick wall, absolutely solid, and on the other lines I have gone right back with census, parish records etc.

So 2 questions 1, how do I attempt at tracking my great grandmothers birth details etc. I can find her on the census, i can find her marriage cert etc but i cannot find her birth, her parents marriage anything.

And 2, how do I start building up a bigger picture of these ancestors and their stories other than the dates and occupations etc that the census provides.

great-grandmother - can you find any siblings - get parents details from their certificate instead ? Try alternative spellings. Sometimes the census index is wrong - if they came from a small place try searching on the firstname and place of birth - that might throw up something.

As for the bigger picture - depends what they did and where they lived. You can try trawling through news papers, or just try and tag some local history on to them - so that you can picture their life.

6-8 generations - back to about 1830ish ? You should be able to go further back than that - have you tried the IGI (familysearch) and freereg (coverage very patchy at present but growing).

throckenholt Thank you, I hope you're still checking my thread so I can pick your brains some more. I've only used the census information on ancestry so I've only gone back to around 1800 maximum if I can deduce the parentage from the 1841 census. i have no idea what the other sources you mention are or what they offer me?

In terms of the brick wall, my great grandmother was born in London, I can find her sisters marriage certificate but again I cant find her birth. I know their parents names but not their mother maiden name. If I could just find their marriage it may help, or the births of the two girls but nothing. Just two census returns in 1911 and 1901. Both show that all family members were born and lived in London, yet my auntie seems to believe that the family were Irish.

In addition my Auntie also reckons that one child was brought up catholic, my great grandmother and her sister protestant. i assume that means that their baptisms may not be readily available. Im completely lost now!

If you are happy to share the information you do have on your great grandmother, plenty of people here can set about the brick wall.

Bigger picture -- you can look into different occupations at different times, can look into local press coverage, look through Poor Law and parish chest records (various parishioners will crop up in those under different guises).

yes yes yes I am happy to share the information.

My Fathers Grandmother Annie Wheels nee Woodroffe. She married Henry George Wheels on xmas day 1914 at st johns church kennington,london. Her address is down as 33 Bowyer st.She is listed as a bottle washer. She was 24.

They had went on to have children Henry, Mary, Rose, Ivy, Ellen and Kenneth.

Annie Woodroffe lists her father as being Joseph Woodroffe (claypipe maker) deceased.

I have found the 1911 census which shows her as a bottle washer living with James Woodroffe & Annie Woodroffe her mother.
On the 1901 census she is living with James, Annie and her sister Mary (although my auntie thought her sister was called Nellie)

Mary married a man named Shea and she lists her father as james woodroffe.

Thats all I can find. As I said above, my aunt thought they were all Irish but on the census James declares that all of them were born in Southwark, London. The census does also state that they had 8 children but only 2 are living.

any help or advice will be more than gratefully received.

oh and james and annie woodroffe listed as having been married 40 yrs in 1911 census.

Have you had a look for them on the 1890 or earlier censuses? I've had a quick look and couldn't see them but I've had wine - wine and genealogy don't mix for me.

I also had a look on Ancestry's marriage records and couldn't see a record that would fit.

It could well be that they were Irish and came to England after Annie's birth. Joseph could have wanted to hide the fact that the family was Irish because so many Irish people and families came across due to the famine and poverty and they weren't treated so well or it was a lazy census enumerator.

I have birth details completely missing for my ggg grandmother but that is because she was illegitimate. Her mother just didn't register her birth!

Are you positive that you have the right Annie in 1911 and 1901?

I notice a family in 1891 here who have the father Joseph and daughter Nellie M. (from the same family in 1901, the daughter is presumably Nellie Matilda). These could be the father and sister of your great grandmother, which would tie in with the name on her marriage certificate and what your aunt remembered.

But then you would have the equally tricky problem of where Annie is in 1891 (OK, maybe she was off with her age and not born until after the 1891 census) or 1901.

(It's entirely possible that this family are nothing to do with yours, but it seems an alternative line of enquiry)

looking for people in London was really needle in a haystack time until recently. On Ancestry.co.uk they are now putting up the London parish registers - not complete by any means but a lot there and growing - it is fabulous for those with London ancestors.

Irish roots seem particularly tricky to track in London (mine included). Only issue - ancestry is a pay site - I would recommend subscribing for a month (about £12 I think) - doing as much as you can in that time, then unsubbing, and doing the same again in a few months time. That is what I did.

Looking at freebmd.co.uk and searching phonetically on the surname Woodruffe - there is a Joseph marrying in Kensington in Jun 1870
Plus a few other likely options - have a dig around and see if you can find anything - then if you are on ancestry try looking them up in the census - see if you can eliminate any.

There is an Annie Elizabeth Woodroffe born Marylebone 1890.

As for the older stuff - the two sites I mentioned are www.freereg.org.uk and www.familysearch.org/ (down at present so can't link to the right bit).

Another useful place for advise is www.rootschat.com

Thank you all for the replies, I too found that Joseph Woodroffe with nellie matilda. And im really certain its not the right one.

the one on the 1911 and 1901 census, the address is Bowyer Street which matches that on Annie's marriage certificate. he is also listed as a claypipe maker which matches the marriage certificate. My nan and all her brothers and sisters were all born in southwark and that is also the district that is listed on the census too. Without the certificates its all guesswork but too much matches.

Apparently James Woodroffe was a Gunsmith and then lost an eye in a work accident which is what my great grandmother told my Dad. I have found a james Woodroffe who went to the military school of engineering and then was a gunsmith who later turned to claypipe making, the family business it seems. I assume this is the same James but again without a certificate how can I be sure. Its critically finding the marriage to Annie senior that is the key so i can find the maternal line too. I'll have a look for the Kensington marriage, I have managed to track most of my maternal side using the london parish records without having to pay for a certificate which has been fabulous.

My Dh's side Ive managed to track just by trawling the local churchyards as they dont seem to have moved more than 2 mile radius in 200 hundred years. Im becoming addicted! M

sometimes buying the certificate is the only way - especially if they married in a register office.

My Dh's side Ive managed to track just by trawling the local churchyards as they dont seem to have moved more than 2 mile radius in 200 hundred years. Im becoming addicted! M

lucky you - I have never found any of mine in church yards.

Addiction - yes - lifelong affliction I am afraid. For months you think you are cured and then you get a relapse

That's good it does sound that you've identified the right Annie (it's good you have that background information to confirm what you find my own dead ends tend to be Smiths or Joneses where I have no extra information to weed out the candidates).

Have you investigated archives held by the RMSE themselves? Or a service record if appropriate (I'm a bit vague on whether RMSE-trained gunsmiths were in the Royal Engineers or were civilians; you'll know that better than I)? If you can find an individual record there you may get information about religion (which would at least give you a pointer on which records to search) and marital status (although I suppose likely he married after training). When was James in the RMSE? Could he have been abroad doing gunsmithing in 1891?

you might be able to get apprenticeship records or guild membership.

does the siter declare that her father James Woodrofe is deceased?

Annie Elizabeth Woodroffe "a" person of this name was born in the civil distoric of Marylebone in 1890

there is a marriage in 1867 (so about your 40 years) of an Ann Small and James Woodroffe in the March quarter and the place East London - can't say they deff married each other but they are on the same page

RG11
Piece / Folio 0595 / 120
Page Number 10
1881 census has a James Woodrofe (dont worry about the speling cos its been transcribed) living with a Sophia Woodrofe his widowed mother of 78 not married though?

thing is James is a gunsmith...
Sophia Frost marries James Woodrofe - could this be the parents?
20 MAY 1840 Saint James, Westminster, London, England

How do you know that Annie is her mother from the census? On the 1901 census it only gives the relationship to the head of the household not anyone else..so is she listed as daughter? only that will mean that she is HIS daughter but not alwysa the daughter of the wife of the head of the household - as childbirth deaths were far to common..

really you need to either get hold of a baptism certificate or the birth certificate to verify the information.

it is so easy to go on and actually research the worng family - the certificates cost £7 - if you dont it could all be so wrong and it would be a shame

there is a James Woodroffe death in 1912 and the age is 65 so meaning he was born around 1847 - this would fit with the James on the 1881 census being 34 in 1881 and unmarried. It would also fit that James was alive in 1911 and dead by the time Annie married - coincedence??

your second question was about how do you get a bigger picture of who these ancestors are - depends on the time and who they where, finding out about where they lived and using old maps of London is a start - use the povery booth map and you will find there wealth comapred to others - which initself is not worth much but then find how these people lived etc.

Look for old photogrpahs of the area they lived in.

search trade directories.

enquire with the relevant archive whether school records survive and then go to that relevant archive and search school admission books to see if your ancesotrs are listed, if they are then get out the school log books to see what daily life was like at the scholl and who the teachers where. This though depends on if the records have one been handed in and stored.

army records IF they have survived - as 80% was lost in the 2ww

asking your own surviving relatives what they remeber and what they were told and then writting it down!

one brach of my ancestors come from the amae neck of the woods as yours and it was a growing part of the city, fields were becoming houses and roads all new - masons and builders were in there elements as work was to be found everywhere so they had a little money to spend.

If you want further information search for any workhouse records and asylum reocrds - normal poor people dont get a mention unless they fall on hard times, committed crime or went insame. Try newspapers for crime and the old bailey website.

A lot of these things I have mentioned ar enot online, so you will have to spend days going to the offices and searching through at the archive to se what you can find.

hth

Try www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/A2A/ to access the other types of records Ivykaty mentioned. It's a national database of archive repositories where you can view the catalogues. You won't be able to view the actual documents without visiting the repository, & it can be a bit hit & miss depending on how detailed the catalogues are but it might take out some of the footwork though. Have good read of the help pages before you start or it can be a bit confusing.

Also, the ancestry website is free to use via the People's Network at all public libraries.