What to do about a friend - advice needed

[Lunar27]

Hi all

Hope it's ok to post a question here for some advice.

I have a friend who's a seemingly decent chap but a recent conversation has made me rethink our friendship and what to do about it.

We were out recently and the conversation took a turn when he said one of his mates was being accused of sexual assault and abuse. Obviously it was being investigated but he was shocked that people on FB etc. had already found him guilty. "But he's always been a great mate and can't believe it". However he'd admitted his infidelity so his mate was clearly dodgy. I tried to explain that dodgy men would always be great to their mates so isn't really a good measure.

The conversation then went on to how he didn't know how to behave at work anymore since #metoo and how two women in the office had made numerous claims of sexually abusive behaviour over the years but how none of them had come to anything. "Clearly there isn't an issue as colleagues would've been in trouble if there was any truth in their allegations". "I've never seen anything so it can't be true". I tried to say that you would never see anything as these men are clever and you're not likely to be looking for this anyway. Therefore it's most likely to be happening but their system for dealing with it is fatally flawed. I then told him of a situation my wife had experienced where Mr touchy feely at work had made her life (and many others) a misery. No-one had ever seen anything but it was clearly going on. In relation to his own behaviour at work I said it was easy really. If you think something you're going to do or say is inappropriate then it most probably is. Don't do anything stupid and there's no problem.

Anyway to my question, this conversation was pretty depressing and I ended up thinking I need to drop this friend. Clearly his views are at odds with my own and worrying. However, there's part of me that is thinking that I could persevere and try to educate. If the latter, how do I approach this and make a difference?

Fwiw I'm male, hence asking as I think I need a different perspective. Thanks in advance and apologies if I've intruded and should post this in a different are of MN.

[Lunar27]

@ArabellaScott

5% is one in 10. That's an awful lot of men, who can do an awful lot of damage.

No I agree. I just meant it sometimes seems like 95% of men.

[Lunar27]

@tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz

Really sorry to hear but yes, it's long overdue. I've received some good advice and will keep plugging away as that's basically all we can do.

I worry about my daughters too. My youngest (16) had a bad experience with a guy at work (she has a Saturday job) where a more senior guy hit on her. He is late 20's. She was so creeped out as she told him how young she was but he didn't care and thought it ok. I appreciate we probably all have thresholds but she felt like it was totally inappropriate and I tended to agree. She took it to her manager as she worked with a lot of 14-18 year old girls and was worried he might have a 'thing' for young girls but they were like, "meh".

So her first experience of work was of a creepy guy and how women have to remove themselves from bad situations as the men just get away with it. How depressing.

I wanted to tell her that things will be fine (aren't we supposed to say this as parents) but I know it simply isn't true. But how do you tell a 16 year old, who has another 50 years of work, that there's likely to be a creep, sleaze bag, sexist bloke etc. in almost every place she goes? My wife already has a lifetime of anecdotes.

[ArabellaScott]

5% seems so small yet 1 in 20 is massive.

Yes, totally. When you think of it in terms of batches of 20 ... every office is likely to contain a predator/abuser/rapist. Every bus. Every pub.

Sorry, depressing.

[Gardeningcreature]

I agree with late.
If someone told me they didn’t know if their behaviour is dodgy as in “I don’t know how to speak to my work colleagues” I would be very warey of them to say the least.

[tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz]

@ArabellaScott

fucksake, one in 20! Obviously.

Numbers are funny aren't they? 5% seems so small yet 1 in 20 is massive.

[tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz]

@latetothefisting

I don't know why men seem to find normal interaction with women so confusing post 'Me too.' For me there is one very simply guiding principle - just treat the women you work with in the same way you would treat a man.

If you make your male colleague a cup of tea or hold the door open for them as they were coming through behind you, or buy them a pint at the pub after work, then it's fine to do so with a female colleague.

If you would give a male colleague a compliment then it's fine to do so to a woman. If you think 'ah, that's complicated, I might say, "Nice haircut"' to Mike but I'd sound like a creep/weirdo/gay if I said "Nice legs in those shorts," or "I love your big blue eyes," then the same applies to Fiona - being nice to someone is fine, anything that could be sexualised is inappropriate.

If you would honestly praise a male colleague on a technical or specialist skill then it's fine to do the same to a female one, however if you think "I'd sound like a condescending twat telling Mike well done for managing to set up the new router or reversing into a tight parking space," then you also sound like a condescending twat to Fiona. etc etc.

In terms of the things you say yourself OP, this is sound advice.

[tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz]

OP nothing fresh to add as there is some good starters here however I just wanted to say it's heartening as a victim of assault in the past and mum to my DD just 13, to hear you are trying to start having these difficult conversations with your fellow men.

It's overdue and absolutely I believe it can make a difference. I appreciate it probably feels like your solo efforts are a drop in the ocean right now but it has to start somewhere though.

Thank you.

[ArabellaScott]

fucksake, one in 20! Obviously.

[ArabellaScott]

5% is one in 10. That's an awful lot of men, who can do an awful lot of damage.

[picklemewalnuts]

My DH has said similar things- that you can't talk about anything in case it's deemed inappropriate. Thing is, he barely speaks anyway so is unlikely to be causing trouble! It's more that he's aware that there are 'wrong things to say' and feels it's just another hoop for the socially awkward to negotiate.

I'd be a bit faux naive next time he says something about 'having to be careful' and say 'Like what?'. When he answers, use @latetothefisting 's technique and say
'well you could say that to me, so you can say it to a woman'. Etc.

[Lunar27]

I have no idea. Bantz probably. Till our conversation I've always thought of him as a lovely considerate, switched on bloke but this threw me completely.

I can't speak for him but some men seemingly can't have a straight up working relationship without flirting/innuendo/sexist banter/insert other inappropriate behaviour here.

[TLIMSISNW]

he didn't know how to behave at work anymore since #metoo

Why? What was he doing or going to do that he can no longer do since women have started speaking out more?

[Lunar27]

@ArabellaScott. It sometimes seems that the 5% is the other way round, the amount I read/see/hear!

[ErrolTheDragon]

Hopefully he'll have taken onboard what you recounted about your wife's experience, at least. I wouldn't give up on him just yet, and fwiw it sounds like you did a pretty good job of challenging/explaining.

[ArabellaScott]

Hm. If your friend is a predator or abusive then I think it perhaps unlikely you'll be able to change his mind. Imo dismissals of women's experiences and that sort of behaviour is indicative of very deeply seated hatred of women. Perhaps a lot if therapy might start to address it - who knows.

I don't think misogyny exists in most men. But a sizeable proportion of males are active misogynists, and it is that (roughly?) circa 5 % that cause the problems, rape, abuse, assault, etc.

How the fuck society deals with that section of the male population I do not know.

[Lunar27]

@latetothefisting if it's any consolation, I have no idea either.

I've heard a lot of men come out with this but they tend to be those who take huge offence when any woman comments on male behaviour. Some are just resistant to change so any suggestion to change makes them very uncomfortable. Diddums!

[icannotbebothered]

I don't think you need to cut him off, just challenge challenge challenge challenge, most of my boyfriends friends have questionable views as they are from a small town and live in their own bubbles, I'm not gonna tell him to ditch all his old mates but I do tell him to challenge them if and when they say anything misogynistic or racist, quite often they don't even know they're being misogynistic or racist, even though they are, my bf challenges them every time now

[latetothefisting]

I don't know why men seem to find normal interaction with women so confusing post 'Me too.' For me there is one very simply guiding principle - just treat the women you work with in the same way you would treat a man.

If you make your male colleague a cup of tea or hold the door open for them as they were coming through behind you, or buy them a pint at the pub after work, then it's fine to do so with a female colleague.

If you would give a male colleague a compliment then it's fine to do so to a woman. If you think 'ah, that's complicated, I might say, "Nice haircut"' to Mike but I'd sound like a creep/weirdo/gay if I said "Nice legs in those shorts," or "I love your big blue eyes," then the same applies to Fiona - being nice to someone is fine, anything that could be sexualised is inappropriate.

If you would honestly praise a male colleague on a technical or specialist skill then it's fine to do the same to a female one, however if you think "I'd sound like a condescending twat telling Mike well done for managing to set up the new router or reversing into a tight parking space," then you also sound like a condescending twat to Fiona. etc etc.

[Lunar27]

Thanks for the replies. Much appreciated.

It's difficult as he was a good friend and was never one to speak disrespectfully about women (hence one reason we got on) but I've definitely lost respect. Not that I'm a saint and have much to learn myself but was expecting more to be honest. However, I do take onboard that men are supposed to call other men out. If I walk away then I'm not exactly helping but agree that he'll probably end if if he finds he's not getting the affirmation he's looking for!

In truth I think he was just looking to vent (bad day at the office) and whilst I listened to him, didn't exactly give him a sympathetic ear!

[Thelnebriati]

I'm not a bloke, but to me that kind of talk feels odd. Does he belong to an online mens group, and was he sounding you out to join?

[StillWeRise]

this is exactly the sort of question you need to take to other men, OP
my feeling is you should keep seeing this friend and take every opportunity to challenge his views- if he doesn't like it, presumably HE will end the friendship (so same outcome, but more chance to influence him)
but, I'm a woman, what do I know about the dynamics of make friendship

[UltraVividLament]

I wouldn't be especially keen to spend time with this man giving his views. You have already challenged him on his views, with the sorts of questions that point out the issues with his arguments. He is unlikely to change his views, but if you find yourself in his company, you should continue to challenge him every time he makes such a statement. It at least shows any other men that are there that what he's saying deserves to be challenged publicly.