Parental alienation and family court

[GCandproud]

amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jul/21/abused-uk-children-family-courts-parental-alienation?__twitter_impression=true

An interesting article about parental alienation syndrome. Personally, I think there are some instances where a resident parent turns the child against the other parent without objective reason but there are so many examples of where the mother has been abused and the child picks up on that (because how can you present a positive picture of someone who has abused you?) and also cases where the child has witnessed abuse and is scared of the other parent independently of the resident parent’s influence. I definitely think it’s the ‘go to’ explanation used by violent men where their former partners try to restrict contact.

Those who have worked in the domestic violence sector have seen examples of women being traumatised by their experience of the family court.

I also wish there were more research on adults whose parents went through divorce and separation. My dad was physically and mentally abusive and a narcissist. If you’d asked him, my mum was guilty of parental alienation. The truth is something entirely different. My siblings and I witnessed abuse and we made our own minds up as a result. But my dad would swear blind that he was a victim of a miscarriage of justice. He also denied the physical abuse even though we all saw it.

It’s complex but I’m glad it’s receiving more attention now.

[Jux]

@R0BYN

Whether the problem lies with the idea of PA or the absolute refusal of the Family Courts to take violence seriously I don't know

It’s

1. the absolute refusal of all courts to take violence against women seriously.

1. The assumption that a women is lying until it’s proved otherwise and a man is telling the truth unless it can disproved.

1. The fact that male violence is seen as a relationship problem ( she made him do it). It’s not a problem that lies with HIM personally. So just because a man beats his wife doesn't mean he will harm his kids .

1. The fact that mens rights are more important that the lives of women and children.

Yes!

It's the same re doctors and pain, isn't it? They minimise a woman's report of pain, and maximise a man's.

[Igmum]

ROBYN spot on

[R0BYN]

Whether the problem lies with the idea of PA or the absolute refusal of the Family Courts to take violence seriously I don't know

It’s

1. the absolute refusal of all courts to take violence against women seriously.
   

1. The assumption that a women is lying until it’s proved otherwise and a man is telling the truth unless it can disproved.
   

1. The fact that male violence is seen as a relationship problem ( she made him do it). It’s not a problem that lies with HIM personally. So just because a man beats his wife doesn't mean he will harm his kids .
   

1. The fact that mens rights are more important that the lives of women and children.

[Igmum]

Thanks for sharing OP. I experienced some pretty horrific DV from ex partner who struggled with alcohol and drugs. When we went through the Family Courts no one ever disputed the violence, the alcohol or the drugs. But he did accuse me of PA (absolutely not true, if anything I was too scrupulous in not criticising him at all to DD). And for 5 years we had a truly terrible CAFCASS officer who believed everything he said without question. Reading about the CAFCASS guidelines was informative. Fortunately, after this, we got a new, more experienced and female CAFCASS officer. She realised with surprise the ex had never been challenged (by the Courts, by CAFCASS, by anyone). She was wonderful. Asked sensible questions. Looked for evidence. BUT, owing to the Courts, DD was forced to spend much of her childhood in fear, being attacked and being with an unstable and violent man. She's now 15 and hasn't seen him since the last time he tried to strangle her, four years ago. The difference in her is incredible. Happier, more stable. Before I was told if I objected they would remove her from my care and give her to ex (my care was never questioned, his most certainly was). Whether the problem lies with the idea of PA or the absolute refusal of the Family Courts to take violence seriously I don't know.

[Flyingantday]

Interesting thread, I read an article about Greg Ellis’s book. It bothered me when he said in the blurb that most accusations of DV were “false or unprovable” as if there was some justifiable equivalence there.

If his story is true, I have great sympathy for what he has been through, but I don’t know if anyone has the stats to know what proportion of cases are malicious alienation or justifiable limitation of contact, and if there’s any way of proving it. The nature of much domestic abuse being behind closed doors and the devious nature of abusers will make it often difficult to prove. It is a concern that in their attempt to seek their own “justice” people like him will happily boost their numbers with those who are likely to be abusers but where abuse was “unprovable”. Similar to the pervasive idea that false rape accusations outweigh the number of actual rapes.

I have also had friends who have worries about being accused of parental alienation when their kids just don’t want to go to the non RP parents house, often for reasons such as seeing the stress that playing hard ball over a financial settlement has caused their mum, or not getting on with a new partner, feeling pushed out by a second family etc.

[Ontherebound34]

@pleasegod

I'm going through this at the moment. Ex has charmed the court appointed psychologist who has recommended dc live with him. The psychologist says I can't separate out my needs to those of the dc because of abuse and can't meet their needs due to autism even though I've been their main carer for over a decade. I've had a restraining order against this man ffs. This will be our 25th court hearing. He's abused me more since he left for OW via the courts than he did when he was here and the court keep letting him do it.

I’m so sorry to hear that. In no other circumstances would a victim be forced to sing her abuser’s praises. If you have been abused, of course you’re going to be fucking scared of your abuser and will struggle with still having him in your life. Poor kids.
I think PA is like false rape allegations. Yes, there will be the odd person who has a grudge and poisons the child against the parent but the vast majority of the time, it’s narcissists unwilling to take any responsibility for their actions and wanting to control people at all costs.
It also assumes that kids are idiots who can be extremely easily influenced just because mum has said something mean about dad. Even young kids can be incredibly astute and don’t allow themselves to be turned against what is a good and loving parent unless the circumstances are quite extreme.

Also, the family court has been known to describe someone who has a history of violence as a loving father because the violence was ‘only’ against the mum and happened ‘in the past’. Fuck off. No.

[R0BYN]

The court appointed psychologists seem like idiots . I know a man who who had never seen his child , as the mother left when she was pregnant due to his extreme violence.

She went to live in a shelter - of course if she had not not left social services would have removed her baby at birth.

He didn’t see the child again. Had other children with other women , he was violent with them and didn’t see their kids.

Then when oldest child was 8 he decided that he wanted to see her. Court appointed psychologist decided that he should see the child based on

1. He seemed like a nice man
   
2. He said he loved the child and he had a photo of her on his mantle piece .
   
3. His current GF said he wasn’t violent
   

The mum has foolishly sent a photo tp his parents when they asked. They never saw the child either ( their choice).

[pleasegod]

I'm going through this at the moment. Ex has charmed the court appointed psychologist who has recommended dc live with him. The psychologist says I can't separate out my needs to those of the dc because of abuse and can't meet their needs due to autism even though I've been their main carer for over a decade. I've had a restraining order against this man ffs. This will be our 25th court hearing. He's abused me more since he left for OW via the courts than he did when he was here and the court keep letting him do it.

[mammummt793]

@Jinxdoesit

This is something I deeply care about especially as it’s children who will be worst causality in this

Well that's something we're very much agreed on and as I explained previously, why I don't think it's as straightforward as it's sometimes made out. The impact on children differs from the impact on women, and in my experience at times can be at odds with one another (not always but I have supported many many children who are torn between the actions of two parents and what is actually in the best interests of the child may not match with what one or even both parents want). I have also worked with children who have definitely been victims of parental alienation, so believe it is very much a thing. This is different to children who have been victims of or witness to domestic abuse, which is also something I support on a daily basis. However my point is that I work with children who have experienced domestic abuse and so have been kept away from fathers as a result, the father's then cry parental alienation, but I have also worked with children who have been truly alienated from a parent who they could otherwise have a solid relationship with. These are different groups but my point was that it is not always immediately clear for those not close to the situation which is which.

I am absolutely not 'trying to be nice to men too', my main focus is always first and foremost on the children, so yeah maybe that makes me a shitty feminist in your view (I don't think it does though) but I'm very happy with my priorities and I wouldn't be in the profession I'm in if the children weren't my priority.

Fully agree with this. Genuine alienation does happen and I don't know what the answer is in those cases... no one seems to know an answer which is what needs resolving

[Stopabusenowxx]

I think that if you are found to have abused or controlled your former partner, the court has to work from the premise that you are not a good parent and are likely to pose a risk of emotional harm to your children. Instead, the courts work from a presumption that contact with the other parent is good. It should not be possible to be dad of the year in the eyes of the court when you also broke your partner’s jaw.

Even if a woman succeeds in shielding her child from ever knowing their Father is a violent abusive man the risk remains that the child will experience abuse in their own right and resist it. The tragedy then is that child will be compelled to normalize that abuse and the mother is unable to call it out / act protectively for fear of being accused of alienating. It's incredibly difficult to navigate this dynamic. For example, children have lessons on bullying, abuse awareness etc today and they are taught to report this type of behavior when experienced from peers. How do you answer a child who asks why their Father is allowed to behave in ways they have been told are unacceptable and must be reported by school?

I don't doubt that true parental alienation exists however having been accused of alienation numerous times I know this is also a used as a very convenient smoke screen to hide abuse. This debate needs to acknowledge that men who beat, rape and otherwise abuse are innately abusive; they thrive on control. That control is not limited to their ex, it extends to their children. When children start to resist this is when the real damage gets done. It is wrong that a child who is being abused chooses to withdraw / resist their abuser only for that abuser to cry ''alienation'' and to be absolved of all responsibility as the spot light turns to their mother who will then be scrutinized for evidence that (despite the years of abuse she & her child have endured) that she's 'promoted' contact or risk losing residence of the child. What world do we live in when one of the measures of protective mothering is whether one has sufficiently encouraged a child to engage with an abuser??!

I do feel this is a feminist issue because domestic abuse and false claims of alienation predominately impact women and their children. This is not to say real parental alienation does not exist and is not harmful, but let's not conflate the 2 as they are entirely separate issues.

[Jinxdoesit]

This is something I deeply care about especially as it’s children who will be worst causality in this

Well that's something we're very much agreed on and as I explained previously, why I don't think it's as straightforward as it's sometimes made out. The impact on children differs from the impact on women, and in my experience at times can be at odds with one another (not always but I have supported many many children who are torn between the actions of two parents and what is actually in the best interests of the child may not match with what one or even both parents want). I have also worked with children who have definitely been victims of parental alienation, so believe it is very much a thing. This is different to children who have been victims of or witness to domestic abuse, which is also something I support on a daily basis. However my point is that I work with children who have experienced domestic abuse and so have been kept away from fathers as a result, the father's then cry parental alienation, but I have also worked with children who have been truly alienated from a parent who they could otherwise have a solid relationship with. These are different groups but my point was that it is not always immediately clear for those not close to the situation which is which.

I am absolutely not 'trying to be nice to men too', my main focus is always first and foremost on the children, so yeah maybe that makes me a shitty feminist in your view (I don't think it does though) but I'm very happy with my priorities and I wouldn't be in the profession I'm in if the children weren't my priority.

[wallpapering]

The fact it effects more mothers does make it feminist issue just like domestic abuse (most of which these women are or have been victims of)

This is something I deeply care about especially as it’s children who will be worst causality in this

[wallpapering]

Thinking about it, I don’t understand why you said that ‘as a feminist’

It read like you justifying your conscience, I’m a usually a nice woman but I wana be nice to men too.

To these women they don’t see the feminist view of it, only that it effectively happening to many mothers, nor do they justify why they support fathers or men who are in solidarity with them in this parental Alienation

[wallpapering]

*t’s tricky because those women are viewed worthless and do not add any value to whatever kind of feminist you are.

[wallpapering]

@Jinxdoesit I don’t understand how this is any more tricky than every other issue related to women.

Domestic Abuse - male violence towards women, women raped by men are these tricky? Even though we know it happens to men and NAMLT and constantly told about woman just as bad should we tone down speaking what effects more women that men?

The fact so many women can share their own experiences speaks volumes, there are plenty of women who have been alienated from the children who can share there experiences they will tell you this has happened due father of kids who is an abuser.

Parent Alienation not interested in those mothers as it doesn’t fit narrative that DA/DV is not a gender issue, women lie with help of feminist yes feminist!

Those mothers receive harassment and are trolled by MRAs.

Parent alienation sold as non gender issue yet will use one story of mother who murdered her kills and run with it forever whilst no mention of countless men who murdered their kids.

I can tell you about how I didn’t take my own sibling side rather fathers when came to care of my nephew but how does that help women.

I really don’t know how as feminist this is tricky.

Have been standing in solidarity with so many women who fighting not only abusers but abusers of system trying to protect their kids from harm many losing access and time and time again like who slap in face when women who claimed to be feminist just walk on by or turn blind eye.

These women are constantly been attacked by MRAs.

Maybe just like PA cult perhaps these women should blame this on women, blame it things like women’s aid and anything else that campaigns against harm to women & girls.

It’s tricky because those women are not worthless and do add any value to whatever kind of feminist you are.

These women don’t label themselves as feminist they just women supporting each other for sake of kids who priority.

[Jinxdoesit]

So as a feminist I find this a tricky area. I'm a nurture teacher and absolutely believe that parental alienation exists and have seen the impact of it on children, particularly in more extreme examples, however I also see the impact on children who have witnessed and experienced domestic violence and coercive control. Both have a hugely negative impact on the child. Without a doubt I believe that there are (probably many) men who are abusive who claim parental alienation takes place, when really it's just natural consequences of their abusive behaviour, but I also believe (and know) that there are women (and men) out there who will try to turn their children against the other parent, whether that be out of bitterness, revenge, control, or just because they don't want that person around anymore. The problem is that unless you are close to the situation you can't really know the truth of it.

What I notice most about this is that people will project their own experiences on others. So for example someone very close to me is currently going through the courts regarding their children, they have never once used the term parental alienation yet that is exactly what is being done to them by their ex-partner. They don't need to call it parental alienation though as the actions of their expartner have been so extreme that the ex is now being investigated by social services and the children's welfare in her care is being assessed as their are serious concerns around what she is saying and doing (not going to post details but it is extreme). Now this person close to me works in a very male-dominated environment and so hears of stories of other men whose exes have also stopped them from seeing their children without reason, or who have 'alienated' them. My friend will automatically believe this to be true in their cases, and so thinks it's awful that it happens to so many men, yet just because it's true in his case doesn't mean it's true in theirs, their exes may have very good reason to stop them seeing the children.

[wallpapering]

Would you agree that parent alienation is worse than if the child is sexual abused as per that tweet?


Personally I’ve never ever thought to compare any kind of abuse as child that is sexually abused to a child that is verbally abuse is going to required completely different levels and ranges of support, care and services.

This is just one example of MRAs narrative been said which is directed at mothers.


clearing out my phone to make more space as this not moved in receipts file, it’s not just one or thought of one

[NumberTheory]

I think there is far too little rigorous research into the impact of custody decisions on children. Even before we get to parental alienation I think the courts are working on a false premise that children routinely benefit from orders requiring they be made available to the non-resident parent when that parent is inconsistent.

On the parental alienation thing I suspect the majority of cases are not very black and white, but agree little consideration seems to be given to the fact the father’s treatment of the child may be the major cause of alienation. There also seems to be very little focus on alienation by fathers as children get older with fathers playing Disney-dad in younger year and then the more liberal role as they get older and gaining puppy love and greater custody just as the major cost of looking after the child (i.e. child care while working) dwindle.

[wallpapering]

It is complex issue and should be case by case.

And yes there are parents denying the other parent from being in kids lives for spite but no where any thing like valid reasons parent has ie fleeing DA or from child being abused.

But PA lobby don’t care it’s they see all just as PA.

It’s already serious issue the lack of training and knowledge of DA/DV within legal system for women so what chance do kids have.

Certainly none behind closed courts. This need to silence with threat who’s is really protecting into need for secrets.

[wallpapering]

Those lobbying there parental Alienation campaign in U.K. have tried and will continue to do so to have it included in domestic abuse bill.

There is nothing my ex can do or say left other than kill me, not for lack of trying and those includes push me to point I do myself, but with PA I am the abuser, I am criminal and worst of I am child abuser who is destroying child’s life by denying needs of father btw they dress it up as needs of child.

Doesn’t bother me what they say no worse than ex, what does is threat PA hangs over my head. For many mothers this is very much reality they already in.

There are countless women when facing family courts not to mention any domestic abuse as this goes against her.

The kind of PA that been promoted stems from Dr.Richard Gardner and likes of Dr.Child’s

[secretskillrelationships]

I think it's a highly complex issue in lots of ways. Neither of my parents was great tbh. My father was a mostly functioning alcoholic manic depressive narcissist and my mother was violent. Separation meant that we became the focus of my mother's rages. Both middle class so none of this was 'seen' though someone did contact social services at one point. I remember very clearly the visit and, although no-one had said anything, I felt this woman was a threat. I dreamt of escape and yet I said nothing. My mother didn't alienate me against my father but I'd have still picked her over him as a child because she was the bigger threat and her rages when she felt rejected were terrifying. I only defied her once and I learnt my lesson. So I think it's really hard to unpick this and children's behaviour isn't always a good indicator either. I think as a society we need to look at this differently.

In Iceland, iirc when parents divorce children are seen by a psychologist early in the process which is mediation based so the needs of the children are central to the process. To be fair, the population is smaller so the people involved are more likely to know the couple too, which I'm sure helps. But it seems a much more human, collaborative process.

[kowari]

I think that if you are found to have abused or controlled your former partner, the court has to work from the premise that you are not a good parent and are likely to pose a risk of emotional harm to your children.
I agree. My child witnessed an assault that put me in hospital. There was a conviction. When I spoke to a mediator they were still suggesting that only abuse of the child meant anything, as if a man who hits a woman is no risk to a child.

[GCandproud]

Yeah I get the impression that many of the fathers who claim it (and let’s face it - the vast majority of cases where it is claimed are men claiming it against women) don’t seem to think that their children have a mind of their own and it must be the mum poisoning them.

I accept that in a small number of cases there are mums who do unreasonably withhold contact but that in most cases where PA is alleged, it’s far more complex and the child’s fear comes not from the mum but from the dad’s behaviour.

One thing that’s disappointing is seeing women who claim to be feminists totally jumping on the MRA bandwagon and claim that women routinely lie about domestic abuse and that PA is widespread.

[TheSmallClangerWhistlesAgain]

I know a few families where PA is claimed by the father. One is because his own teenage sons have chosen not to spend time with him due to his behaviour towards them. Two others have chosen to move hundreds of miles away from their children and demand to have them for the school holidays. For one friend, it means she was never able to take her children for family holidays. Once the children became teens, they no longer wanted to spend their entire school holidays away from their friends and usual home, especially one pair who had no desire to live in a caravan for 6 weeks as their dad and his new partner were doing up a house.

The saddest thing is that one of these fathers had a really good relationship with the children when he lived nearby. They could visit him as often as they wanted and chose to do so. It was his own voluntary actions in moving to Scotland from southern England that caused the rift and he must know deep down that it isn't his EXP driving it.

[wallpapering]

Definitely worth a watch is Dispatches Torn Apart channel 4.

A convicted pedo has taken mother to court 37 x to get access, he will again next year. It will be her that is parent alienator which PA say is abuse.

twitter.com/c4dispatches/status/1417446691293306889?s=21

This is awful as you see clip of police footage & kids screaming begging mum. Woke up in middle of night taken out of bed to go live with their father.

One mum told she be arrested is son kept running away from his fathers which again police took him from his mums home hysterical

There are many of these stories. The PA MRA many who abusers constantly harassing, dox intimate troll women speak on Twitter.

Been heavy backlash than usual since program