Choristerships in London/non-boarding

[FalalaLondon]

I didn't realise these might even exist, but - via a chance conversation with an acquaintance - have discovered this:
www.templechurch.com/become-a-chorister/

I don't quite understand how it works. I don't think they sing services every day, and I don't know which schools the scholarships are for. Or if you then have to apply for certain schools. I guess I could give them a ring and find out (although I imagine they're close at the moment)? I'm not even sure where this place is. Also, I'm not clear about the age range but heard from my source that they're currently interested even in older boys (Year 4/5) as they have gaps. I thought choristers usually started earlier.

Anyone know about this place?

It also inspired me to look at others and I see Southwark have a similar set-up, but - again - not sure what it all amounts to in terms of commitment.

cathedral.southwark.anglican.org/worship-and-music/music/the-choir/joining-the-choir/

Do they really PAY the kids to sing?!?! Seems an unusual deal if they also offer lessons free of charge? Seems too good to be true ...

Can't believe I've missed this. I've always avoided thinking about choristerships because I was ruling out the boarding aspect. This has made me think again. My sons are Year 2 and Year 4. But we don't live in central London so not sure if that counts us out.

[PointeShoesandTutus]

Temple church is the church within Inner and Middle temples, which are 2 of the four inns of court (legal quarters for barristers) in the city. They’re near Temple tube station, sandwiched between Embankment and Fleet Street. Not far from Holborn.

I imagine standards would be very high and it would require a lot of commitment, but I understand that you can use the scholarship for any school of your choosing.

[Bvop]

Almost all choir schools start at Y4. The exceptions are St Paul’s and New College Oxford, which oddly has a path to choristership from Y2. Temple is an excellent choir, and many of the boys study at City of London school which is nearby. I know a boy who went there (had a brother at a different, boarding chorister school) and who thrived. It’s an excellent musical training for a child (one of mine was a chorister), and it’s worth contacting the school to find out if there are spaces. Your son doesn’t need to be a brilliant singer already, just be musical - he’ll be taught to sing when he gets there.

[FalalaLondon]

Thank you for your comments. I will continue to look into it. Bit confused about whether I apply to the school or the church. Or what if I'm not thinking about CLS for education? To be honest, we hadn't really thought about private education for our younger ones (I have 2 older stepchildren and they're at state schools - would feel weird to take a new departure for the younger ones). Lots to think about. I'll also post this on the secondary school board.

[se22mother]

For Southwark you apply to the church. The form is on their website. Word of warning they expect your child to be able to commit as much as they might need at short notice...doesn't work with extra commitments

[Catsandchocolate1980]

My son (7) got into Temple Church choir and will start as a probationer in a couple of weeks. We are excited, and crucially so is he, but I am also terrified of the demanding schedule required of him if it goes well and he becomes a full chorister. When does he ever get to exercise? Or play?! Or do other music practice (he loves trumpet and piano). As a full chorister, it’s 4 days a week after school, plus Sunday mornings. We live a 45 min journey away from Temple, in SE London.

His younger sister (4) also mustn’t have her options curtailed because of his schedule… I am wondering how others have made this situation work? Do you and/or your other half just both go part time at work? If he were at City of London School, as many of the boys are, he would be taken there with the other kids each day, but we are keen to avoid having to move schools (not keen on single sex education, can’t afford the rest of the fees and don’t want him chucked out of the private system when his voice breaks).

[PallasStrand]

So what’s in the choristership for him (and you, obviously), musical training aside, if you’re not going to use the scholarship, @Catsandchocolate1980?

[Catsandchocolate1980]

Well, the multitude of other benefits, right?! He would learn teamwork, how to listen, first class free vocal training, free musical theory training, the sheer joy of learning all that repertoire and hearing his voice blend with others, the linguistic training, he would be in one of the best choirs in London…. His godmother was a chorister and now is very high up in the civil service; she says she uses the skills she acquired as a girl chorister every day at work.

You still get the stipend put aside for you each year and you can use it later, for sixth form or university.

But arrghhhh….regarding the commitment required of a small kid….

[usedtobeboss3]

I used to work at Southwark many years ago, and the chorister time commitment was/is substantial - about 3 evenings a week as I recall (sort of 4pm-6.30 ish) and all day Sunday - plus things like Christmas, Easter etc when the demands are much greater. That said, the boys (and girls, now) have a fantastic time, and get to sing at some big ceremonies, plus tours etc.

[PallasStrand]

Sure, it’s excellent musical training and in responsibility, teamwork etc — I was at an Oxford college with a notable choir, attached school etc) — but if he becomes a chorister, it’s a ferocious schedule and in some ways a whole-family commitment for people living at a distance with FT jobs, another child, and who are not benefiting from the non-musical education side of things.

[jellybeanteaparty]

It would be a similar committment to children who perform in professional theatre you can make it work but I think the child has to love it. From observing Oxbridge choirs the boys have lots of fun and play sport together in their breaks etc

[PallasStrand]

@jellybeanteaparty

It would be a similar committment to children who perform in professional theatre you can make it work but I think the child has to love it. From observing Oxbridge choirs the boys have lots of fun and play sport together in their breaks etc

That’s certainly true of the Oxford choristers i knew in my experience, but they were all at the attached school as boarders, so their practices, services, sport, free time etc were factored into their daily lives, not relying on parents dashing about to deliver and collect them across significant distances with other commitments. In fact, an old friend actually had her son board at his cathedral school, despite living quite close because she thought it was better all round.

[OhCrumbsWhereNow]

I have a child who does professional theatre/film work and friends with kids who are choristers.

For both, think very carefully about the commitment - especially if you have other children.

We have spent a lot of years not having holidays because DD is working or unable to book anything because you are waiting to hear about things - at least with choirs, you probably know schedules in advance unlike theatre/film so can plan better, but you can write off Xmas and Easter for the foreseeable. Forget normal things like going to birthday parties, weddings, weekends away with family etc. I have lost count of the number of last minute cancellations, or the times DH has had to go to family events alone because DD is working/auditioning/training and so on.

You generally need a very flexible job, the ability to spend your life ferrying them about and hanging around waiting for hours on end - I only have the one kid but it's like having a second full time job at times.

Personally I would only consider a child being a chorister if they were a boarder as it's just too complex to manage their schedules on top of a normal life - and even more so if you have more than one child.

Above all, it needs to be the child who is desperately wanting to do this above everything else - if they're only semi keen or it's the parent who wants them to take the opportunity it's a recipe for disaster.

[FalalaLondon]

Glad to see this thread resurrected! I never did get around to making enquiries as DH not convinced. And my older one probably a bit too old.
If i think about it too long, they'll have left home!

@Catsandchocolate1980 - what was the audition process like? Were they friendly? Presumably you have a trial period, so that either side can back out? Hard, though, with kids, isn't it as you can never quite be sure if they'll get bored. But presumably nothing stops you from trying and then changing your mind.

If you're worried about it, are there other parents you can talk to? Or the staff? Maybe not the boss person, but anyone further down. School secretary equivalent. Or schoolgate-type chats with the parents.

Good luck and do report back!

[FalalaLondon]

Maybe there's a Whatsapp group? That's usually where it's all at. Or a PTA?

[Moominmammacat]

I did it with three of mine at a cathedral without an attached school, 15 miles away. It was gruelling, timewise, two days a week, before and after school, one evening rehearsal and two weekends, both days, a month. Generally, it was very good but when a new choirmaster arrived it was dire for an entire year. The benefits are huge but so are the costs, financial and otherwise. The DC say they would do it again, don't regret a thing, but I am not so sure ...

[FalalaLondon]

Ah yes, choirmasters can be very variable, can't they? And I imagine church music doesn't exactly move with the times in terms of approach to how one works with children. I suppose it only works at that high standard if it's also quite regimented. Perhaps it's not unlike high-level football/gymnastics training in that regard. What was the issue with the new choirmaster @Moominmammacat

[AnUnlikelyCombination]

That’s not true in my experience - the Dir of Music in the choir my DC are in is incredibly good with children and young people, spot on on safeguarding, and generally lovely. It’s a robed choir which does the RSCM medals etc, but not a cathedral, so a bit less time commitment but still high standards.

[polar81]

My daughter has been a Cathedral Chorister for the last couple of years and is not boarding. The Cathedral takes children from a wide range of local schools, which is much more inclusive, as you still usually have to pay a sum of money even with the chorister discounted fees for the private schools, which many parents round here just can't afford.

My DD absolutely loves it and she needs to (there's x3 two hour rehearsals, theory session and all day Sunday) each week in term time. I run my own business so can work around her schedule, and Evensong finishes late so her dad can pick her up. I would say the commitment is similar to elite gymnastics / football. I also have another child who is super keen to start, but we'll see

In terms of benefits, the musical education is second to none and they perform at a standard many choirs could only dream of. They get termly wages, free instrument tuition, vocal and theory sessions, and a chance to be part of a team with other likeminded children. My DD has made some fantastic friends there

[raspberryrippleicecream]

My DS was a Chorister at an unattached Cathedral. Yes it was a huge commitment but he loved it and thrived on it, he was head chorister. He managed to fit in practising three instruments. He continued into the senior choir and will be leaving next week after ten years as he is off to uni. For the right child it is an amazing opportunity.

[squintsoftheworldunite]

The choristers at my DCs school do 5 mornings a week, 4 after school, every weekend but alternating which day. Its a way of life for them- and their whole families.

[londonmummy1966]

I was the sister of a chorister when they didn't have girls in choirs - it was a very unfair choice for me as everything was focussed around getting my brother to and from choir/going to watch him sing etc etc. My DD were both choristers at a cathedral with out a school and loved it for the earlier years but things got to the borderline of abusive with a constantly angry choirmaster and they were withdrawn eventually. Don't necessarily believe what you are told about singing and theory lessons - it was on the website for DDs' choir but never materialised and the "being paid" for services was £1.10 a time (nearly 3 hours for a practice followed by a service) of which 30% was retained as a "retention bonus) only to be paid to them if they stayed until the end of year 12 which they didn't....

Having said that I have friends with chorister DC elsewhere who absolutely loved it - I think it depends very much on the character of the choirmaster as to the quality of the experience.

[Moominmammacat]

I second Londonmummy (I wonder where you were ..? Do PM me). You need to see beyond the Carols at Kings image and really understand the character of the man (almost always man) who will be playing such a big part in the life of your child.

[LoveBlueCheese]

Hi @Catsandchocolate1980 I have sent you a DM.

[JumpinJellyfish]

Hi @Catsandchocolate1980 just wondering how your DS got on?

I have a very musical little one (year 1 atm) and considering Temple for him - we live in east London and I work in the city so commute wouldn’t be too bad. I couldn’t contemplate him boarding anywhere so I think Temple would be our only realistic option. Keen to hear about what the audition process involves and what the experience is like for child and rest of the family.

[Catsandchocolate1980]

Hi @JumpinJellyfish yes we took
the plunge and it has been life changing for our son. He has an outlet for his natural curiosity about music, languages etc and has made some of his best friends there. In some ways the intellectual challenge for him begins AFTER school each day, when he gets to choir. The audition process was simple - I told him we were ‘just going into town to do some singing’ (never called it an audition) and he didn’t question. He sang Away in a Manger and then had to do some simple tests. It IS a big commitment for us as a family - I have gone down to 4 days a week and my husband works flexibly too. But this is partly in order to protect our younger daughter from having the feeling that it’s ’all about’ her brother’s schedule. We never wanted her to feel like she can’t do things because of his commitments. Not everyone can make this adjustment but we could, and for us it’s been the right thing. Temple are recruiting at the moment and now accepting 2 boys and 2 girls each year. Happy to talk to you personally about it if we can sort that!