Should I get DD a violin without lessons?

[OnlyGlowingSlightly]

DD (aĺmost 5) has been asking to play the violin for over a year. Last year, she confidently told me 2 days before Christmas that she knew what Santa would bring her: he brings what children really, really want and that was a violin. Needless to say, Santa hadn't got her a violin.

And to my shame, I still haven't managed to organise lessons for her .The only Suzuki teacher close by has no spaces - maybe next September. Other places don't teach so young. And to be fair, I'm not entirely sure she's ready for lessons. She's fairly sensible and able to focus, but she thinks learning will be easy and I'm not sure she'll persist when it's not.

But Christmas is coming up again, and I know she's still keen... Would it be worth me getting her a violin to play around with despite no lessons? She has a ukulele and plays with that sometimes, although nothing very musical comes out. And I suspect a violin is even harder to get anything meaningful out of!

I'd like to give her the chance, but I'm wary of spoiling the violin for her, and putting her off it, by giving her an instrument but no support to learn to use it. I don't play any instruments (can read very basic music) so don't feel able to help her.

WWYD?

[Potato25]

Unless she's an unexpected violin prodigy your ears are going to bleed for the first few years if you don't get a teacher. Maybe wait until she's a bit older and has a better appreciation and knowledge of how musical notes work and is able to relate the pitch to the violin. 7 years old is a good age for kids to start properly.

[Lollipop30]

I think possibly any instrument can sound terrible without instruction plus bad habits can be self learnt.

My DD started singing lessons about April when she turned 4, she now does piano also. She actually wanted to do piano and had been nagging for ages and I reluctantly gave in.
She loves it, it’s more my motivation with practice that needs work.
I think you’ll know your child and whether it’s worth it at that age. My daughter has fab concentration and loves that sort of thing, there is no way her sister would manage the same at the same age!

[TheClaws]

OP, my DD was similar to yours - she nagged at me for a couple of years from very little for a violin for Christmas. She also said Santa would bring her one, and I had to say violins were far too delicate for Santa’s sack. Eventually I had to give in and I bought her one, and she enrolled for lessons through her school. She is a natural musician, as it turns out, but violin is not her instrument - cello is. She switched to cello in her teens, has completed most of her musicianship grades and is principal cellist in a symphony orchestra. She wouldn’t be there though if I hadn’t given in to her violin pleas!

So, if your DD keeps asking you - I’d do something about it

[SingingMySong]

We rented one for £25 a term, then decided buying from a decent music shop worked out much cheaper! I think I paid £100 in rental for a stentor half size. I could have bought new for about that much and got 50% back in trade in.

OP I'd just tell her it's something for when she's bigger. I reckon tap dancing is better than instrument playing at 5 - lots of practice at hearing and responding to the beat, co-ordination, counting bars, and frankly a lot more fun than trying to get a G out of a descant recorder with little fingers. My 8 year old somehow ended up playing 3 instruments which is ridiculous, but I'm sure tap gave them a head start.

[LuchiMangsho]

I am in London and pay 5 pounds a month with a 15 pound deposit. Have been paying that for 2.5 years now.

[CotswoldStrife]

It is from a Music Service, they are great. It's slightly cheaper if you have lessons at school but even the higher rate works out at just under £50 for a year for a violin. We may consider buying one when she reaches the full size version, almost there at a 3/4 one now.

It is a very well-used service locally, she has taken part in one large joint concert and the number of identical cases had to be seen to be believed!

[cingolimama]

Cotswold, yes, you ARE lucky. Do you rent it from a Music Service? I've never heard of violin rental so cheap from a music shop.

[CotswoldStrife]

I rent DD's violin, it's nowhere near that much! Perhaps we are lucky but it's around much a term, less than £50 a year!

[purplepigeon]

As a music teacher I would support not starting without proper lessons - bad habits are a nightmare to undo. Also if possible parents should be at the lessons to start with. I have recently had two pupils turn up (school lessons, no parent present) with the wrong size violin, broken bow, bridge etc, provided by ill-informed parents. For some instruments with small sizes it's fine to start young, but with a teacher and parent to support the practise.

[cingolimama]

OP, agree with all pp who say no violin until you have a teacher.

However, those who say rent a violin - I would respectfully disagree. The economics of renting just don't make sense. Go to a specialist string shop, or if you're not near one, you can do everything online and by phone (Cardiff Violins are particularly helpful). You can buy a second hand very decent outfit (including bow and case) from about £100-£200,. A good violin shop will offer generous trade-in value for when you need to step up a size. You might also just sell on an instrument through the teacher or music school. Rentals are (approximately) £10-15/month, and typically a child would be on a fractional size for about 18 months. Do the maths.

[ReMyDog]

hiddley

[hiddley]

He's 13 now.

He started violin when he was 5 (with weekly lessons and daily practice torture). I could only tolerate about 10 minutes every week-day (not a good Mammy). When he started to actually make something like a tuneful sound from about 7, he really fell in love with it and would practice himself with no input from me. I had learned violin briefly as a teenager so know the basics but my sister would be a national fiddle champion and teaches violin also, so she occasionally worked with him too. We also changed teachers about two years ago to one who pushed them a little harder and focused more on what I call the 'fiddly bits' (can't think of the proper terms, but it's where they do very quick notes in one beat and such? might be called trebles or something?)
He is learning trad but reads music and is studying music at secondary now so that might focus more on classical.
I got him a ukulele for Christmas one year (maybe when he was nine) and my sister gives him occasional lessons when she visits as she plays it.
Then my Dad bought him a banjo last year and he now does weekly lessons in that. Seems to have just took to it instantly.
He seems to be easily able to pick up any of the stringed instruments having had the grounding in violin.
We're Irish so there is a rich trad music culture and he loves being involved in music groups, competitions, lessons and the social aspect of it really.
Seems to enjoy trombone now too, so maybe God knows what he'll end up sticking with.
Aside from PE, music is his favourite class.

[ReMyDog]

hiddley how old is you ds? very encouraging that he is interested in and plays several instruments.

[CotswoldStrife]

I did Suzuki method, it felt very slow and repetitive to me. DD picked the violin too and her teacher uses the Violin Star books, seem to learn more songs in a different way (although my memory may be playing tricks after so long!).

Don't buy a violin without lessons, and your DD may grow out of it quite quickly. In fact, something with fixed notes is a good way of learning music befor the violin so she knows what it should sound like (I kick myself regularly for not doing this ....)

[Michaelahpurple]

I am quite puzzled by the reluctance of teachers to take 5 year olds , as all the strongest players at Ds's school started by year 1 and a few in reception.

Absolutely agree no instrument without lessons. Utterly utterly. Also think renting better - they change violins every 18 months or so at that age.

And be aware that she will not be able to practice alone. Whether you do susuki or "trad", at that age you need to be at the lesson to learn how to practice with her and to help her practice.

[hiddley]

You ain't heard ds gillybeanz....

It would have put rats out of a mill. Caused my very sensitive musical ear severe distress for months. I almost covered my ears at the worst bits and the dog considered howling.

[gillybeanz]

Violin is a great idea, the only thing worse is a recorder.
They don't all make awful sounds it depends on the individual.
I thought it really would be a viledin but it wasn't that bad.
If they really want to do it you should let them choose, sometimes they play for a while, progress to a certain level and change their minds entirely, this is fine too.

[Schwanengesang]

I agree that violin should start with a teacher; also that recorder might be a good starting point if a teacher can't be found soon for violin.

As with violin, recorder played badly is squeaky but a child being taught properly will soon sound better.

The thing thay may make it hard to play recorder is her fingers might be too small to cover the holes at this age, which will lead to squeaks and some notes not coming out right.

Thomann (online) do a preschooler recorder with smaller holes. It has fewer notes and starts on g rather than c (where descant recorders start) ie the tutor books mentioned upthread are not going to be suitable for the preschooler one. However, for learning to read music and do basic tunes it might make a good stepping stone until her fingers are bigger.

Of course if her hands are big enough, go straight to a descant. John pitts' Recorder from the beginning is a good book to learn from.

[hiddley]

Violin is as good an instrument as any to start to learn music on (if you can cope with the noise). DS now plays banjo, ukulele and tin whistle. Interested now in piano and guitar.

[Ferguson2]

YES - Aulos or Yamaha for recorder. BUT you may find her fingers are too slim of cover the holes effectively. I only started recorders for Year 2.

However, if you can afford it, a good Keyboard will have hundreds of sounds - including violin, viola, cello, etc - woodwind, brass, and all orchestral sounds. It will also have accompaniment styles for most genres of music, and may be able to record and interface with computers via MIDI. Around £300 should get a good Keyboard.

(Let me know if you need more information.)

[andantecantabile]

If you are going to get a recorder, definitely get an Aulos or Yamaha one -the cheap ones are actually more difficult to play and sound worse....you could teach her yourself from a book, Recorder Magic is good for the very young ones and you can get the CD version to make it more fun. Red Hot Recorder is also good but goes a bit more quickly and has less pictures.

[SofiaAmes]

I would go to a music shop and have your dd try out a recorder first. Personally I HATE the sound of recorders and would never want to have to hear my child practicing one.

[OnlyGlowingSlightly]

hiddley - I think she first got interested when we looked around a school when she was just 3 and she saw an older girl having a lesson. She watched enthralled! More recently, her cousin let her have a go on his violin.

I actually suspect it's 'being able to play the instrument' which she is drawn to, rather than the particular sound iyswim. But she's been quite consistent about it!

[OnlyGlowingSlightly]

Wow - thank you all for the great advice!

OK - I think I'll get her a recorder for Christmas then, and explain that she needs to be a bit older for violin. Then if the recorder goes well, I'll go back to the violin teachers and see if things have changed.

Should I get a proper recorder from a music shop, or are the character ones you get on Amazon OK to learn on?

And should I try to find a teacher for recorder, or is that some enough that I should try to teach her myself?

Thank you all for helping!

[Minimusiciansmama]

I like educatingarti's suggestion. I think that's a good plan. The violin could come for Birthday. There are some lovely recorder books with easy pieces from stuff like frozen etc. My DD started recorder and piano at 5. It worked well.

also, if you were buying one without a teacher, you'd need to go to a music shop and she would need to be with you when you buy to ensure you get the right size for her.

It's wonderful she's keen but get her lessons