Why do you send your daughters to Brownies?

[AlbusPercival]

I was hoping to understand.

TO be very upfront I am a brown owl. I am planning this terms activities, and while I am bearing in mind all of the guiding principles I have to, what the girls find fun, I wondered why parents send their daughters and what they expect them to learn?

I was reading an old thread about a brownie unit having a Diva Night. The OP was upset at choice of songs for karaoke (understandably in my opinion) but other posters were questioning Diva Night at all. For me if the girls requested it, as one night out of the 40 I have them in a year, I would find a way to make it happen. Some times children like to dress up, and sing and dance, just as they also like to abseil, cook etc.

So what do you expect your daughters to get from Brownies?

And conversely, if you wouldn't send them, why not?

I really wanted to go to brownies because I hoped to learn real skills that parents couldn't/wouldn't do.

My dd asked to join Rainbows when a group was launched here. I was glad for her to have a break from her boisterous brother. She went on to Brownies, Guides, and then as a helper in the Brownie unit, as the next level up (ranger guides?) was too far away. She enjoyed all sorts of activities, and learned skills which really helped her at work. They made tea, took part in swimming galas, all sorts of very varied things, so something for every sort of child. She did have some troubles and disagreements in the group, but the leader was skilled at helping resolve these. Her experience helping at camp (dormitories) organising and encouraging the younger girls stood her in good stead for being a team leader as an adult. She invented the 'sleepover in a session' in our area, and read in the cathedral. She gained her warrant when she was 18, and volunteered in a pack near where she went to university. sadly they kicked her out when they found out she had a girlfriend 8 years her senior, and she's never been near the organisation since

theEx that's absolutely awful. Can I ask when that was (roughly)?

I've just remembered, a really lovely YL from my district who like your daughter had gone through all the different sections went to uni last year and "came out" on Facebook with a picture of her and her very pretty girlfriend and I don't think any of the leaders could have been more pleased for her.

madwoman She 'sort of' signed her promise(her signing wasn't as good last year & she doesn't cope well under pressure!)Her helper at Brownies also printed off the key signs for her to keep,which was lovely.
I need to get more involved,I think!For example,I wasn't aware there was a disability awareness badge,I shall look in to it.
She did manage to go on her first trip out(without Mum or Dad) with them at the beginning of the year,as when she went to Rainbows we had to go with her.She is doubly incontinent & changing her was an issue,but Brown Owl said she would do it!
Thank you for all the ideas.

Ex, that must have been ages ago. We have tons of out and proud guiders. More a reflection of the times than the organization? It must have been hard for her though. We have kids that are out in our district, and deal very severely (through code of conduct agreements) with any discrimination.

Chickens, lol, I remember dd2 learning to sign and with her fine motor issues it was like trying to read scribble

Like others have said, I sent my dds for the friendship angle rather than to learn anything specific. Dd1 was struggling a bit with the small clique of her friends so going to Brownies gave her another string to her friendship bow which turned out to be really helpful. She's still at Guides and showing no sign of leaving any time soon!

It didn't quite work out that way for dd2 though, I sent her for similar reasons (no specific issues, just thought it'd help her to widen her circle of friends) but she didn't click with the other girls there and begged me to let her give it up so I did.

I have to say though, I'm amazed at the activities the leaders manage to dream up every week that can be done in a local Village Hall with minimal facilities!

fastdaytears The leader of the Brownies where she was helping locally and had been a brownie herself knew of her girlfriend, tho they were discrete, and the leader didn't mind. DD was an interesting helper to have there, then, as she was very Goth, with lots of attitude, so showing that brownies and Guides don't have to be sweet and conventional. Seemingly they couldn't have thrown her out due to her sexuality (bi) as a Guide, but the pack where she went to could could refuse to have her as a leader. This was 2007/8.
OP - do you do sleepover in a session? It's great fun. Brownies come with pjs under their uniform, and blanket & pillow. Take uniform off, bedtime stories, milk and biscuits, lights out. 5 minutes later, low level of lighting, midnight feast, ghost stories. Lights out, back to 'sleep' then lights back on, breakfast, uniform on, and off home.

Why I enjoyed brownies in the 80s:

Well, I did change pack from one where brown owl was a bit shouty to a friendlier one, after about a year.

I liked the structure, uniform, mythology, sense of belonging, including being part of an international community. Read the handbook cover to cover.

Liked doing badges - I was that sort of child - structure, challenge, achievement, badge to show it off, great. Though, I only did about 8 not tens of them. I definitely pushed myself to learn and practise skills e.g. Had to cook a meal (main course) at the tester's house for my cook's badge.

Liked and remember learning safety related things. A 'safety in the home' badge in brownies, firefighter in guides. Felt useful and grown up. Along with my cooking and hostess badges it was quite homemaker focused though! We all did a drama one by doing a play though and other stuff.

Liked outdoor games, rounders etc. team stuff. Stuff that gave everyone a role - I was a bit shy, so opportunity to take part in a structured, inclusive way was great for me.

Like the idea of girl-led activity but, the thing I hated about guides, so left after a year, was all the girly, teenagery, fluffy, socially precocious stuff. I wanted to learn skills, light fires, do badges, camp. At 11 and not socially precocious or interested in make up, fashion and boys, I found doing girly stuff aimed at 14 year-olds who were, massively off-putting. I'd have hated that sort if thing to have permeated into brownies.

I'd send dd if she wanted to go (only three now) to mix with other girls - I like the idea of her meeting a wide range of people and lots of having different groups of friends.

I'd hope she'd learn new stuff, mostly experience new stuff and do things that are intrinsically group-based, be that sporty, drama, outdoorsy, making stuff, creating stuff together. Learning teamwork and to value others' different strengths and inputs is a massive part of it I think.

I'm a bit wary of the religious aspect. I know it's part of what the organisation is but would not choose a pack that placed a lot of emphasis on that. No harm learning something about religion and it's celebrations 'from the inside' but I'd want to be sure she didn't feel pressured to profess belief in something she has no other reason to believe.

In our group religion very much takes a back seat. They now refer to 'your God' rather than 'God' in order to take in different religions.

It backfired somewhat when dd2 was asked to talk about 'her God' and she chose Medusa to lecture the group on! I had to reassure Brown Owl that we didn't actually worship snake haired Gorgons at home .....

The ex - no! That is brilliant, we have done pyjama parties, but that is an awesome build, going on the list for next term!

haha Prof - I would love a lecture on Medusa!

About a third of my brownies go to the church we are based in (popular church school nearby cough cough)

I only mention faith when trying to exlain what develop my beliefs means to the girls making their promise. (If anyone can help with that, much appreciated!!) And if/when we do the discovering faith badge.

I do hand out flyers for the church summer school if asked to by the church though.

I would like dd to go but the religious part bothers me. The swearing allegiance to the queen part bothers dh. I enquired and was told they accept children of all faiths but not those with none. I was also told that she would not be allowed to simply swear allegiance to her country. It's a shame as I think that it's a lovely innocent type of activity but I cannot be a hypocrite.

It is so sad your local unit told you that NoMore. I dont think you can drop the Queen part, but as an atheist myself you definitely don't need to have a faith. (I believe you do for scouts, but happy to be corrected).

The current brownie promise is:

I promise that I will do my best, to be true to myself and develop my beliefs, to serve my Queen and community and to keep the Brownie Guide Law.

The law is:

A brownie guide thinks of others before herself, and does a good turn every day.

I encouraged DD to join Rainbows and now Brownies to widen her social circle, and to give her opportunities that are difficult to arrange as an only child.
She really loves it. She loves working towards achievable badges, has made new friends, her confidence has increased, she is proud of her uniform and she has role models both in older girls as well as the Brown Owl.
I was a Sea Cadet as a child and my happiest childhood memories were all made as part of that group.

Oh yes, and I love the ethos of doing a good turn. I work for a charity and my DD seemed to think you could only make a difference if it was a 'big' gesture or major commitment. She now realises that small gestures are just as valuable.

"I enquired and was told they accept children of all faiths but not those with none"

That is absolutely wrong- do please take it further!

revised fundamentals of Scouting

Our beaver group in a church have never murmured about us not being Christian- Ds pledged to serve the world instead of god I think.

Thinking further, the element of mixing with girls of other ages in small groups is a positive, especially for an only child. I think mixing with the same people, differently, can be as valuable as mixing with new people.

I really like that there is (was in my day and I'd imagine it persists) an emphasis on kindness, inclusion and taking part, so making sure everyone was playing a part they were happy about. It was much more supportive than a school environment and more interested in individual development than some less 'all round' activities.

So my reasons for liking it were about 'what it is' more than exactly what we did.

Letting girls revel in being girls - by which I mean enjoying and getting the most from being the age they are, not striving or pretending to be older - is an essential element I think.

The DDs were very keen to go and started a term ago, one at Rainbows and one at Brownies. The ladies in charge are lovely, really calm and sweet people and DD2 (who can take a while to get involved in a group that she doesn't know) in particular really loves it.

I'm split about them going, to a certain extent they are repeating activities that they do at their (excellent) after school club and I'm not keen on the church connection (like the parades). But the big positive is that it's a female only space and that will become increasingly valuable as they get older. I like all the feminist stuff that happens higher up in the Guiding movement (the survey about sexism etc that have been in the news).

Can't say I'd be keen about a Diva Night but it's the name I object to with its negative connotations, if it was a 'talent show' then that would be fine. I like outdoor activities and sporty things, I think doing 'male' activities in a female space is particularly valuable.

Can I ask how you would like the church issue to be managed?

No church parades?

In our unit church parade is not compulsory. St Georges Day is for various complicated local reasons, but my children have been involved in the movement for 15 years have never attended a Church Parade. 15 St George!s Days, though!

Church parades are fine- just as long as it's optional/no pressure on the non believers.

I sent my older DDs to Brownies some years ago, and hoping the youngest will go at some stage (massive age gap). The reasons I wanted them to be Brownies was to make friends out of school and outside of their normal social groups, to have a non-competitive fun activity to do, where it is not about doing well, pressure, practising or moving up a group etc. In retrospect, the benefits were also that they learnt about fundraising, running a stall, leadership and helping others. They also had a fun experience of camping. The Brownies around here (London) are a very diverse group in terms of culture, religion and class, and that was all a part of the benefits. I am not at all keen on religion, but that is not what Brownies is about.