Are music teachers taught how to teach?

[richmal]

Is it the case that any good musician can set up as a music teacher or are there courses they can do to teach them about how to teach.

It seems that dd has some really excellent musicians teach her, but it is hit and miss whether she makes good progress. In one of her instruments most of her techniques have come from watching youtube videos I've found. Another is extremely exact on teaching her very precisely what she needs to do. With the latter she is making good progress.

So, before I swap teachers yet again, I was wondering if there is any teaching qualification they may have in music, as I have found that being a good musician does not necessarily make them a good teacher.

[1805]

well yes, of course, if the new teacher replies that their pro playing was with "back-of-beyond-philharmonic", or "Royal Philharmonic" is the deciding factor isn't it.

[duchesse]

William Pleeth was who taught DMIL. According to Wiki he was a very good and gentle teacher.

[morethanpotatoprints]

richmal

Have you tried contacting a specialist music school, there may be teachers who teach outside the school. My dd has had a couple at various times.
Also if you live near a major city you could contact the orchestra of the city and ask for teachers. Maybe the local grammar school could help, I know round here there are only a few but the teachers are good and well respected.

[richmal]

Morethan, yes, asking at a school will be a good place to start.

In answer to the question about youtube being incorrect, I would agree that one person may be wrong, but when several contributors are saying the same thing, there's a good chance they have a point.

The main impression I've got from youtube is that teachers should be teaching the techniques for things like shifting, vibrato and such like as a distinct part of the lesson, rather than seeing how the child does things and only intervene if the child is doing thing wrong?

[sunnyweatherplease]

OP - You seem quite keen on you tube teaching. If you're not sure about finding a good teacher, could you not just get all the info you need from the you tube clips? Would be loads cheaper too!!!

[richmal]

I do think you need a teacher for individual feedback, but TBH, between teachers, I did use youtube to take dd back to basics and her playing ability was improving. I will also use it again to make sure she is learning new techniques correctly. However I would much rather find a teacher in whom I am as confident in as I am in her other teacher.

To quote JaneinReading, I want a teacher who is "good at showing others how to do things" and at the moment the closest I can get is some of those who have posted on youtube. In the past, if your child went to individual music lessons there was nothing to compare it with. At least now there is.

[JulieMichelleRobinson]

To be fair, it also depends what level your DD is at - I wouldn't be teaching vibrato to someone below about grade 4 standard at a minimum, because I would be teaching them how to shift for grades 3/4 (big motion) before expecting them to refine the same movement into vibrato. I would introduce it about then, and come back to it every now and again for the next few years before expecting it to have been gradually integrated, to begin with only on longer notes. I would also expect them to be able to play well in tune before teaching vibrato, which is sometimes used to cover poor intonation, but that's another story! I am not a fan of the overuse of vibrato anyway, though, which is a matter of personal taste (and being obsessed with early music).

I also don't usually make a distinct "technique" section in the lessons, but approach things as they occur in the music. However, that doesn't mean that we don't spend entire lessons on technique sometimes, if I spot something that needs addressing.

[1805]

….which is why you need a real life teacher.
Anyway, OP, you have some sound suggestions on here on how to find a 'good' teacher that will deliver the kind of lessons that you want for your dd.
Presumably dd plays in groups, so you could always ask the better players there who teaches them.

And I think the answer to you original question re qualifications is yes there are, but that doesn't mean that every teacher will suit every child. A bit like the driving test really - lots of people pass, but drive recklessly afterwards. Teachers can get complacent, just like people do in every business.

Good luck in finding a teacher you like.

[claraschu]

Learning to hold a bow is a very long term project; I think it takes a lifetime. The best performers are always thinking about it and subtly changing and adjusting their bow grip. A good teacher will always have some aspect of bow technique in mind to help a student make a better sound and feel more expressive and at ease with the instrument.

You can learn a lot from watching other people, and from thinking about it on your own, but most people also develop bad habits and tension which are very hard to struggle against once they have taken root. A good teacher will help keep an eye on this.

[JulieMichelleRobinson]

Bowhold? Don't talk to me about bowhold! At least mine's improved since I've been teaching beginners, because I have to give the perfect example ;-)

[richmal]

Thanks all for your help. I now sort of know better what to look for in dd's next teacher. I think dd is a child who needs to be told what to practice, why she is to practising it. She likes to see that she is making progress and wants a teacher who can assure her that she can make progress.

[mistlethrush]

I was thinking about my bow hold as I played through the Elgar quartet last night... my thumb has a tendency to straighten out and that affects the tone quality. Then I was consciously freeing up my left shoulder in the slow movement of the Mozart we played afterwards. Its something you need to be critical with yourself constantly to make sure bad habits don't creep in.

I changed teacher when I was 15 and he took my technique back to basics (think of an hours lesson and a one octave scale starting on an open string - I often didn't manage to start the scale and I certainly didn't get further than the top note (ie back down again).

[whatsthatcomingoverthehill]

Understanding the reason for doing certain exercises or studies is crucial. Otherwise you can just play it through without learning anything.

What grade has your DD got to? Like Julie says, vibrato shouldn't be used until at least grade 4. I've recently gone back to having lessons (did grade 8 at school ages ago) and I'm only allowed to have my bow in one position. Apparently when I can bow properly in a central position then we can move on to bowing nearer the bridge etc.

Last tip, is get her to play in front of mirror, so she can see what she is doing. It really is invaluable.

[richmal]

Dd is grade 4. Thanks for the tip about the mirror.

[mistlethrush]

The problem with string instruments is that there are so many different things happening - all at the same time - its difficult to get them all going right at the same time. So you might find that if you did a certain move, you would see (if you looked in the mirror) that your left arm got tense and was in teh wrong position - but simply looking in the mirror would mean that you didn't manage to do the position change in the first place etc etc - I think at the moment using the mirror would be good for targetted things - like being able to bow straight without the bow ending up at an angle at the point or the heel (this is contrary to what our body wants to do with it) - or keeping the left wrist in the right shape on position changes etc etc etc.

[dailygrowl]

The legendary (late) William Pleeth (cello teacher) taught Jacqueline du Pre. He's had professional students from around the world come to Britain just to be taught by him.

Back to OP's question: yes, there are. The commonest are the ones from the Associated Board of the Royal Schools of Music, and there are some qualifications offered as university courses too.

The main thing though, is that a qualification is no guarantee (just like school!) that the teacher will plan and give good lessons or even have a good rapport with the pupil. I had a great young piano teacher just fresh out of her exams who taught well and I really enjoyed my lessons and made progress; I then moved home and went to one with all the right qualifications and great CV, and she didn't click with me at all: she would sip drinks loudly in lessons, criticise my choice of pieces and interpretation ("just do it my way, you are doing it wrongly!") and basically not be interested in seeing her pupils improve, as long as she got paid. I don't think I made any progress at all under her for a whole year; I seemed to play the same as the year before despite moving a grade up, and the results showed (both in the actual day to day playing as well as the day of the exams).

The basics are important - if she still doesn't appear to progress under this teacher, it's worth asking around for good recommendations. I think an average pupil who progresses well/quickly and is happy is a better indicator than a very motivated pupil who has always worked hard and got good results (ie it might just be the child who is good but the teacher might not be). I think some teachers might give your child a taster session first before committing to a long term arrangement.

[goonIcantakeit]

I learned violin through the school peripatetic system and developed very bad techniques.

I've spent about £500 since on remedial lessons with a private teacher. As well as absorbing what she showed me, I spent a lot of time watching "Professor V" on the internet - he is absolutely brililant and very highly recognised for the quality of his online lessons - sorts out your bowhold - but you do need a teacher too to give you feedback.....

[JulieMichelleRobinson]

@Dailygrowl -

The ABRSM teaching diplomas presuppose that one has already been teaching for a number of years. So while they prove that someone can teach, they don't actually... teach you to teach.

[fergie4]

If there are violin teachers on here, can someone advise me? A friend asked me if I'd teach the basics of violin to a 6 year old. She'd never even picked one up and couldn't read music, and her parents wanted her to get a feel for it and see if she liked it. I'm self taught so my own technique isn't great, and I'm not at a high level - still an adult learner myself. I explained to the parents but they were happy with that just to start off. I'm teaching her the way I taught myself really which is learning the notes (plus music theory) and some simple tunes first, and technique kind of secondary.

She's enjoying playing and seems to me to be coming along well, and obviously practicing a lot (compared to a lot of her friends with proper teachers who've got bored and given up). But I'm really worried I'm letting her away with (and possibly teaching by example!) too many bad habits and not instilling enough technique. It's been about 6 months now and I suggested to her parents it was probably time she moved onto a more professional teacher but they said it's fine because she's enjoying it and likes me as a teacher. But I really don't want to make it hard for her (or future teachers) later on.

Is there anything I should be doing, or should I be insisting fairly soon that she moves on? Or is it OK to just be playing and enjoying it at this stage, with better technique developed later on?

[JulieMichelleRobinson]

Fergie4 -

It depends. Classical violin? Then she might need to have a 'proper' teacher at some point fairly soon.

OTOH... if you go down the fiddle route... most fiddlers I know are self-taught. Some of them are absolutely amazing. I have to shut my eyes when they play, of course... ;-)

The most important thing is that whatever you do, she shouldn't have any tension in either hand; everything needs to be relaxed. Both wrists should be in a flat position, not bent in either direction. Thumbs should be relaxed and the violin/fiddle shouldn't be gripped by either thumb or shoulder. Bow thumb should be checked for nice loose circle shape. The violin/fiddle should be free to move, and the left hand should be free to shift up and down (you can do this by playing glissandos/slides all the way up and down the fingerboard, without worrying about positions or anything - she's six, she'll enjoy that, you might want to try 'Red Parrot Green Parrot'). Right hand shouldn't be stiff and there should be some flexibility in the fingers even if that isn't being used right now... and of course, bow should be going in a fairly straight line, without using too much or too little bow and with a decent enough pressure created by turning the right arm with an 'opening the door' motion, not by squeezing.

One option might be for you to have a few lessons yourself, just to see what idiosyncracies you've developed in your own technique? The worst thing of all would be to discourage this girl from playing. My motto is that there isn't one correct way to play the violin, my job is to stop people doing things that are obviously wrong.

[JulieMichelleRobinson]

Will it make you feel better if I point out that I still have problems with my own technique, and that teaching beginners has actually helped my own playing because I'm so paranoid about demonstrating things badly?

[fergie4]

Thanks Julie! That makes me feel a lot better as I am trying to concentrate on the kind of things you mention, picking up on them once she has a decent grasp of the tune and giving exercises for using the whole bow, and relaxing hands etc. I play fiddle myself, which is why I've never needed to worry too much about technique, but I'm aware at certain points I hit something I can't do and have to learn the technique. I'm planning to get a teacher for a while and maybe start doing some formal grades as well - have them on piano and guitar but not violin/fiddle.

I do tell her we're learning together and she'll have to move on before she over-takes me, which might be quite soon :-p

[JulieMichelleRobinson]

fergie4

If you have an LCM exam centre anywhere near you, which you will do if you're in the UK, you can take examinations in Scottish or Irish music rather than classical. I'm not, so we can't, but just for your info. There is also a Scottish exam board but I think you can only take their exams in Edinburgh or something - I use the materials as they grade tunes nicely for me. As you progress up the grades, you're expected to develop in a different way to classical violin - by ornamenting and varying the melodies, for example, rather than by being able to use third position and stuff. The LCM website has all the info. I suspect/hope that they may be more forgiving of you not having a 'classical' technique.