Singing lessons can harm young voices, can anyone advise on this?

[ZZZenEggain]

I have been reading that it is unwise to really train a girl's voice before the age of 14, some say even 16 because it is fragile while they are developing and can easily be damaged. I don't personally know anything about this but it might be wise to investigate.

My dd is 12 and has started having lessons which she enjoys. I am a bit concerned now after googling it whether she shouldn't wait a couple of years. Apparently you can really damage the voice if you train it in the wrong way, too intensively or too early.

AFAIK she does some warm up exercises, is working with Vaccai bel canto course (which I think is singing scales) and then they sing a couple of songs. Does this sound alright for her age or is it better to leave it till she is older? I like the teacher and so does dd, she enjoys the lessons. Dd has quite a low speaking voice and the teacher does rewrite if dd is finding the higher notes difficult.

[mummytime]

Well I know Opera singers who only started serious singing at Music College. But most Musicians will belong to choirs, especially pianists and Organists.

Lots of Cathedral choirs select on potential rather than ability. Being able to carry a tune isn't that rare a skill, or one that usually needs lessons to learn. Cathedral choirs also teach a lot about singing technique.

[UniqueAndAmazing]

I wonder what "people" mean when they say falsetto in females - when I was trying to understand it from my book, which mentions it, I couldn't work it out how it could even be achieved - women/girls are best singing in their head voice (which is the high notes), as their chest voice (which has now been referred to on this thread as speech level) is harder to manage and control.
I wonder if "falsetto" in females is intended to be this chest voice, rather than a high head voice?
I have tried and tried and tried, and cannot conceive how a female voice can be artificially made higher. It's your head voice all the way through.
It's exactly the same voice as boys are taught to use.

Opera voices done properly are great, opera voices done badly is the "opera sound" that you can get - the hideous vibrato done by people who have no idea how to use their vocal chords properly. the operatic vibrato is very very difficult to control, and is one of the last things to learn after making sure that you can sing correctly and well with a steady voice. trying to do vibrato without the correct training could damage your voice.

[UniqueAndAmazing]

and if you sing in a choir, it's even more important not to use an opera voice at all - you need to blend. Choral singing and opera singing are completely different beasts.

[UniqueAndAmazing]

even the information on wikipedia is doubtful - they are citing one bloke who reckons " this failure to recognize the female falsetto voice has led to the misidentification of young contraltos and mezzo-sopranos as sopranos, as it is easier for these lower voice types to sing in the soprano tessitura using their falsetto register."

can't happen. A mezzo or contralto (female alto voice) cannot possibly get high enough to fake a soprano voice. You have your range and that's it. It might be that the singers who have been tested in this way have warmed up to such an extent that in a vocal test, they were able to reach higher notes, but that doesn't mean that that's their range (in much the same way as a car could reach 120mph, but they shouldn't because the bolts are rattling and the engine is falling apart - that car would be more comfortable using its top speed of 110mph, for example)

We often warm up and practise singing to the very top of our voices - it means that we don't struggle so much singing higher notes when we sing for real, but no one would expect us to sing those very high notes as a matter of course.

[Picturesinthefirelight]

Hi singsong - you mention singing with thick folds. What other gold masses are there?

[Picturesinthefirelight]

Sorry predictive text. What other fold masses are there?

[SingSongMummy]

Hi pictures. The vocal folds should thin and stretch as the singer goes up in register - something like a high siren or 'ng' is a good example of using thin folds.

[Picturesinthefirelight]

What are the folds doing when someone sings in falsetto?

[SingSongMummy]

Females do not have a falsetto, it is only a term which should be applied to men!

[Picturesinthefirelight]

That's not the question I asked. What do the folds do when someone is singing in falsetto?

[Picturesinthefirelight]

If falsetto doesnt exist in women what happens when a woman yodels?

[UniqueAndAmazing]

yodelling is just vibrato.
it's not falsetto, it's going between notes very quickly.

[Picturesinthefirelight]

So when opera singers use vibrato are they yodelling?

[Picturesinthefirelight]

Which would be the logical assumption from that assertion.

[Picturesinthefirelight]

Yodelling is moving in between modal voice quality and falsetto or to put it another way a change of true vocal fold body cover condition from thick to stiff folds. Sometimes referred to in some textbooks as a plane shift or "flipping the plane"

[Picturesinthefirelight]

An example of this in pop singing is someone like Leona Lewis.

[MortenHasNiceShirts]

When a woman yodels I imagine she goes between her chest and head voice. Not her falsetto. Which women don't have.

[SingSongMummy]

Morten is right!

Vibrato is a natural oscillation of the vocal chords when the correct air pressure is running through them. There are plenty of people with an incorrect or 'imposed' vibrato usually involving serious tension!

A correct operatic vibrato is inevitable when singing correctly in the classical style and is often suppressed by choral singers who prefer a straight sound which in itself can lead to vocal problems, especially in the not so youthful!

[UniqueAndAmazing]

i didn't say that vibrato was yodelling, i said that yodelling was just vibrato - it was a clumsy way of saying it, but it's changing notes.
Morten said it better than me.
chest voice and head voice.


your thing was like saying all fire engines are red therefore everything that's red must be a fire engine.

[Schmedz]

Pictures..your DH's terminology makes me think of Lin Marsh! Fantastic vocal leader!! All backed up by solid physical understanding of how the voice works...

[Picturesinthefirelight]

He's met Lin.

Are you familiar with the research of Jo Estill?

[Schmedz]

Not directly, but I believe it is her research and vocal teaching program that has most influenced Lin. I have been fortunate to have done a number of workshops with Lin and use the techniques with all my choirs (junior school level). It is amazing how effective, sensible and simple they are!

[Picturesinthefirelight]

And research is still continuing but I agree about Lin Marsh. Gillyanne Kayes is well worth a read too.

[JustFoofy]

Just wondering if I can jump on here and ask about my son.

He's 11 very tall and although his voice isnt actually breaking, it's getting deeper gradually and is considerably deeper than his peers. He's recently started singing lessons but changed teachers. His first teacher wasn't doing any warm ups, launching straight into singing and had him belting out musical theatre songs with no reference to head and chest voice.
Ds is now with a new teacher who does warm ups andcis trying to teach him where to sing with head ir chest voice (which ds is now finding difficult).
I suppose I'm asking what should I be expecting from his singing teacher especially in light of his developmental stage?

Sorry for the hijack

[UniqueAndAmazing]

if his singing teacher is already teaching him good technique (not impressed with his old teacher), then they'll also be teaching him how to deal with his changing voice.

They have to be ever so careful with changing voices, as this is when the damage can really happen.
He's finding it difficult because he's never had to do it before.