Do you believe David Cameron & George Osborne

[BritBrit]

So David Cameron & George Osborne have released several reports through the Treasury & Bank of England warning of economic chaos, hundreds of thousands of job losses & recession. But do you believe them or just view it as scaremongering?

The Treasury report from yesterday has been ridiculed in the press even by pro EU sources calling it fantasy land, scaremongering, fishy, economically flawed & says the report misses key issues

Sky- news.sky.com/story/1700769/so-whats-fishy-about-treasury-brexit-report

Guardian- www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/23/post-brexit-economy-george-osborne-eu-referendum

[SpringingIntoAction]

I have concluded that the EU is pretty similar to a religious cult. It is exclusivist, it proselytises in order to gain new members and it threatens to punish deserters.

Hear hear. That's one of the best descriptions I've heard of the EU.

Uncertainty is what allows people to build and lose fortunes. If the market remained totally stable and totally predictable then we would sail merrily along the same trajectory, nobody would ever get rich, start business, lose market positioning, take risks. But that is impossible as all markets are unpredictable - who forecasted the banking crisis?

Sometimes you have to take a risk - did West Germany hesitate before it reunited with the DDR? Did we say to China - no, you can't have Hong Kong back because it may harm the UK? Did Mrs Thatcher not worry before the Big Bang in the City of London?
We survived all these.

I've heard that Brexit will cause a recession greater than the Great Depression.

I've heard that contradicted by nother economist who said it was hardly be noticeable.

The only thing these economists can agree on is not to agree.

Anyone who has worked for a large organisation fr the Government knows that you can model figures and facts and assumptions to come up with any scanario you wish. The Treasury have strayed from their usual predictions and just given us the bleak and the bleaker - which suits their employer (the Gvt's ) case, so no surprise there the,

And I find it hilarious when people get so worked up about economists casting chicken entrails. They forget that if we remain in the EU somebody else will eventually be running our economy and making polices that will have a very adverse impact on that same economy of ours we are so desperate to protect. They don't seem to realise that when we hand over control to the EU to meddle deeper and deeper in our national affairs we are giving up many of the tools we need to ensure our economy remains successful.

Some things like sovereignty and self-determination are priceless.

[Turbinaria]

Apologies but I stand corrected, the actual amount the UK contributed to the Greek bailout last year was £850 million

[claig]

'Do you believe David Cameron & George Osborne'

I'd sooner believe Arthur Daley (little dody maybe, but underneath he's alright) than that duo of tricksters and slicksters.

The more Cameron enunciates emphatically woth a reddening face, the more obvious and transparent it all gets and the longer his nose seems to grow.

[OTheHugeManatee]

Whether or not Gideon can do maths is irrelevant - the doom and gloom economic stuff is not the issue. The referendum is about being part of a political union and that's what the debate should be about. The fact that Osborne and Cameron keep trying to make it about anything but tells me loud and clear that they don't like the arguments for remaining in a political union, as they don't really believe in this mythical 'special status' achieved by Cameron's nonexistent 'renegotiation' and don't want anyone else thinking too hard about it either.

[Turbinaria]

No. I'm far more concerned about the instability of the Eurozone and even though we don't have the Euro we still had to pay £58million in contributions to help bail out Greece last year.

The Eurozone is like a stack of cards at the moment with economies such as Spain, Portugal, Italy all still very shaky if one of them implodes they will take everyone else in the EU with them. And I haven't even factored in all the recent accession countries or Turkey, Albania, Serbia Kosovo Montenegro who want to join.

If the EU was made up of just politically and economically stable countries then remain would be much less of a risk but now the analogy is more like sharing a house and a joint bank account with a number of people you don't really know with poor credit ratings, in deep debt, no savings, low earnings and lack of long term prospects. If they hit the buffers you will end up being held responsible for the whole she-bang

[Winterbiscuit]

Conservatives In: Spot the Difference

[dulcefarniente]

And much of it is debateable llijkk

[ThroughThickAndThin01]

Quite a few if your points arent to like lljkk

We minimise extra yrs of austerity so Cameron and Osbourne say. I don't believe them.

We may safeguard 820,000 UK jobs but we may not.

We help prevent falls in....house prices not true, and not necesarily a good thing anyway. It could do with a correction imo

We avoid shocks related to uncertainty about political future How?

We reduce severityof near-term recessions and risk of recession happening at all - your crystal ball is remarkable! And optimistic. How do we do that? There's almighty recession brewing whether we are in or out and I'd love to know how you propose to stop it by remaining in the EU with all the baggage that contains.

[lljkk]

If Cameron & Osborne think leaving will be disaster, why shouldn't they be allowed to say so?

I decided my vote before Referendum day was set. The news just confirms what I had already figured out. By staying in the EU

We minimise extra yrs of austerity
We influence Europe to stay stable, prosperous & peaceful.
We may safeguard 820,000 UK jobs
We help prevent falls in growth and house prices
We avoid shocks related to uncertainty about political future
We remain highly attractive to foreign investors
We reduce severity of near-term recessions and risk of recession happening at all
We are part of a big powerful bloc that can hoist its weight around in negotiating trading deals

What's not to like?

[ThoraGruntwhistle]

I think they're both lying despicable arseholes. I'm voting In though.

[Kummerspeck]

I don't believe them at all.

I think the EU have a lot of plans, going forward, which Britain will not like and we will have no power to resist after the referendum. Cameron has repeatedly denied all possibilities of an EU army yet there are suggestions that will happen quickly if we stay in which could affect our defence capabilities Link

[dulcefarniente]

Springing but would Cameron really be that bothered about the impact on his party? He's made it clear that he wants to step down at the end of this Parliament so won't be around to deal with it for long. He's always given me the impression that being Prime Minister was just something he had on a checklist of things he wanted to achieve, rather than politics being a passion. Independently wealthy wife. Check. Prime Minister. Check. Famous friends. Check. High profile international role. Tbc... Lecture tours. Tbc...

[Roonerspism]

Nope, I don't believe it. Not at all.

It is in everyone's interests to resolve trade agreements etc ASAP.

I work in financial services so am perhaps more cynical than most. I effing hate the EU

[Pangurban1]

No, I don't believe them. However, I certainly wouldn't believe Gove, Fox , Hunt, IDS or Johnson either.

[dulcefarniente]

No don't believe either of them. As for the predictions of a financial meltdown from economists and bankers - these would be self same people who failed to predict the global economic downturn. Not much of a recommendation.

We need to adopt the same attitudes to European rules and regulations as the rest of Europe i.e. go along with them when it is in our interests to do so and pay lip service to it when it doesn't. So wording big contracts in such a way that the company that gets it has to use British products and workers to protect our industry and skillbase rather than leaving it up to the bidders where they manufacture the goods. A policy which has had a very negative impact on our industry and not something that the French or Germans would allow to happen even though we are theoretically playing by the same rules.

[SpringingIntoAction]

I'm voting out because nobody has made a positive case for staying.

I've been waiting to hear one for the last 20 years. Still waiting.

I am out and about a lot listening to people during this campaign. It is difficult to express just how much Cameron is distrusted - I have had several people tell me they fear their postal vote will be in some way negated. I have also had a few people tell me they voted for Cameron at the last election but would never do so again (some go as far as to say they will never vote Tory again).

It is going to be interesting to see what happens once this referendum is over as it may end up being a pyrrhic victory for Cameron. He may win the referendum but he may have caused an irreconcilable fracture in is party.

[Bragadocia]

Oooh, snap posting times kirinm, to the second! There must be a MN game in that.

[Bragadocia]

I am pro Europe myself and will be voting to remain, but this is despite the 'stay' campaign, rather than because of it. Whether or not their statements are based on truth, the negativity of the campaign is quite disappointing. There seems to be so little put out about why the EU is ideologically a good thing. Sometimes I wonder if the govt. statements will turn actually turn people against them; I have contempt for politicians who appear to be trying to frighten the public.

[kirinm]

I think that the economy is bound to be unstable if we leave. It'll take years to establish trade deals and the uncertainty won't be welcomed by businesses and banks. It has already stalled the housing market. House prices need stabilising but a crash isn't going to do anyone any good let alone the economy.

I don't know if I believe the specifics being shouted about (by either side) but I do believe we are in for a difficult time if we do leave. There is zero detail about what is actually going to happen because nobody knows how trade deals will be negotiated. It's kind of ridiculous to think leaving will have no negative impact even if that is relatively short term.

[ThroughThickAndThin01]

No, I don't believe them. I have a feeling there is a whole lot of bad stuff being buried right now which will come out gradually after June 23rd.

I'll take my risk with Project Fear, for the greater long term good. I'm voting out.

[lavenderdoilly]

It's not about what two h"ere today gone tomorrow" politicians say. It's about the future of our country when they are long gone.
Brexit could well send us into recession. It may take us ages to bounce back and we'd need to shout pretty loud to get half decent trade agreements on our own. Which is how we'd try to recover. No thanks. I'll take Project Fear over Project Fantasy Island.

[rumblingDMexploitingbstds]

I've learned never to listen to a word politicians say, just to look at the whole picture of what I've seen them do. Over time. Do Cameron and Osborne in your experience, consistently show integrity, honesty and full disclosure in their actions compared to what they say, and do they always act in the best interests of the country as a whole? Or in the best interests of themselves?

I'm out. This is scaremongering. They don't want off the gravy train, of course they don't. And if the vote is to stay and the EU has a full mandate from the UK - remember the brakes have always been on, they've always been wary to push because their evidence of having a legal mandate from the UK population was extremely dodgy - I suspect we ain't seen nothing yet. The UK being 'encouraged' to reconsider the Euro and the relocation of the world recognised City of London financial centre into Europe and out of the UK (out of British control) are two that come immediately to mind.

[MaliceInWonderland78]

I don't believe them. We've been here before with so-called experts telling us what will happen (remember what was going to happen if we didn't join the Euro?)

I'm voting out because nobody has made a positive case for staying. I've yet to hear anyone make a case for staying that isn't predicated on our inability to go it alone. I've got more confidence in this country. We are (when we set about it) truly world class.

I do think that for some voting in, they are voting to stay as it's some sort of shorthand to prove they're not racist - and set themselves against the likes of UKIP. That's just my opinion- based on discussing it with a handful of people who want to stay.

[Motheroffourdragons]

I don't usually believe a single word they say, but on this occasion I do.

I fully expect the country to plunge back into recession following a leave result, we aren't doing that well in terms of growth anyway, so it won't take much. With recession comes job losses. So it all makes sense to me.

I would say though they have lost a lot of credibility over the past few weeks so people may not listen to them.

[Calamara]

Cameron and Osborne sound increasingly like indoctrinated members of a religious cult who will spout anything to remain on message.

I have concluded that the EU is pretty similar to a religious cult. It is exclusivist, it proselytises in order to gain new members and it threatens to punish deserters.

The government is doing us a disservice by talking up the threat of leaving. If they remained calm and neutral, and instead emphasised the importance of democratic principles above all else then there would be far less likelihood of a problem. The EU is a human construct. It will rise and fall like everything else. The important thing is to see the fall before it comes and give it a soft landing.

In the event of an exit, I think a blip in share prices is probable. Some big international firms may also explore whether they need a stronger foothold in Europe, but they are likely to remain cautious until the terms of exit are sorted because the Eurozone is an ongoing mess. We are a huge market in and of ourselves and we have well established trading relationships all over the world. I am confident that we can flourish outside the EU even if Juncker succeeds in his threat to enforce punitive measures agains us.

And we have to ask ourselves how other people across Europe would respond to punitive measures against us. Juncker might think that they would gloat with him, or that he might succeed in suppressing the rise of nationalism. I think it is highly likely that punishing us for exercising our democratic will to leave would backfire quite spectacularly.