AIBU to think DS will be fine at local South London state primary with fairly poor SATs even if we can afford to go private?

[pasturesnew]

Apologies for the long post!

DS is coming up to 3 so am guessing if we want to go the private route then we need to book him a place soon.

There are good state schools near us in South London but apparently they are all expecting plenty of siblings so likelihood is as DS is first child that he will end up in local state primary that is a bit poor in the results stakes as our local authority does not have enough places at the moment and has had to set up temporary classrooms in some schools in our area. The state school is near our house. The private schools are further away and seem to be all right but not amazing.

We would like 3 kids with no. 2 on the way now so if we go private it would cost a great deal as then we would be committed for all 3, wouldn't we?

We would consider private at secondary level but there seem to be plenty of decent state secondaries nearby so hopefully that won't be necessary.

We could afford it and to be honest if we start down the private route grandparents are likely to want to chip in but it seems like a lot of money that could go somewhere else more useful or fun e.g. holidays, paying down the mortgage, saving for the kids' futures, or I could go part-time at work or DH could become a SAHD.

DH was happy at failing South London primary school then went to pushy prep at 7 and did fine but felt really pressured. He liked his private secondary school, though, partly because of the sports and partly because his parents were going through a rough patch so he boarded for a while and made some lovely friends in his boarding house.

I am a perfectly happy ex-state pupil both at primary and secondary level. My exam results at school and university were way better than DH's and overall my experience of education seems to have been more positive than his, which I would largely put down to a happier home life as a child.

The only thing that would really sell a private primary school to us would be if we felt they would really love and value the kids.

What do you think? Thanks!

[campion]

Depends entirely on the school and what you expect for your DC, both socially and academically.You can't go back and have another 'go' if it turns out to be a mistake but, presumably, you'd realise if things weren't working out.

Friends of ours sent their son to their local primary school which happened to be rather a ' challenging' place, owing to the circumstances of many of the families.They believed all parents should support their local school.The teachers were dedicated - they had to be - but that boy spent a fairly miserable time feeling the odd one out. As he said to me, ' no-one likes doing what I like', so friendships were more difficult to sustain.

At the end of Yr 5 he was withdrawn from school and taught at home for a year before getting a scholarship to the local independent school ( where he thrived). His younger brother lasted a year at the primary before being Home Ed'd till ( state) secondary. This younger boy would watch his former classmates go past his house each day and say how glad he was not to be joining them. His brother was / is a more resilient character but still felt the isolation.

[1dilemma]

with

[1dilemma]

Is IMHO Blu and I did qualify it wiht an IMHO

[Blu]

"a) most of the schools resources ie money and energy will go on those dcs"

Not true.

[catwalker]

When looking at state primaries don't look at SATS results at all, look at the Value Added figure in the league tables. I know of primaries that always top the local league tables and appear in the national league tables based on their KS2 SATS results. But their intake is always high ability, so they don't really have to do much work. The primary we use has average SATS results and is always in the bottom half of the local league tables, but our intake is well below average and so the school does a wonderful job to get the KS2 results they do get. Basically, it's easy to get good results with good material. You need to look at where pupils start from before you can judge how good their KS2 results are.

I also agree that a HT can make a huge difference to how a school performs. A change of HT at our primary saw the school go from satisfactory (only just - local authority contemplating special measures) to good (with elements of outstanding) in the space of about 3 years.

There's a lot to be said for going to a local school - helps to develop friendships. BUT, beware the scourge of SATS in state schools. Year 6 is notoriously turgid for kids as all they do is revise for their SATS tests.

[Builde]

My dd goes to the nearest State Primary which has poor sats results and as a consequence is undersubscribed by middle class parents.

However, the atmosphere, leadership and teaching is excellent and the school was thoroughly recommended by teacher friends.

Remember that the average sats results of a school are averages; they are not what your child will get.

We welcomed the opportunity to be able to walk to school and for our dd to mix with a broader range of people; our friends are mostly university educated and in professional jobs.

I sometimes feel a bit out of place though but I wasn't looking for my dd's school to become my social life.

[wheelsonthebus]

We were considering private in London for our dc; we did all the sums (including an average 6% inflation/trips/uniform and all the add ons) and it came to £73,000 for reception to the end of primary.
Sadly i got made redundant so the option was not ours anymore, but doing the maths did make us really think about committing to this sort of money from a young age, with all the uncertainties that life holds.
As someone else said, you can't really take them out once you start.
However you can do the state thing plus tutoring (if you want to top up the state education), which would cost about £1,000 a year round there. There's a big difference between that and £3,000 a term for private.

[jujumaman]

You're obviously a motivated, committed person who would contribute directly to the school - definitely go for the state primary.

I know several people whose dcs all go to an Ofsted ranked "failing" inner London primary school. On paper I wouldn't have touched it. But my friends are very involved with the school and their children are thriving: happy, polite, learning their ABCs and 123s no problem so the image of a school can be quite dissimilar from the reality.

Also I think that - issues of overcrowding apart - the credit crunch is having a positive effect on such schools - parents who would have once avoided them are having to send their dcs there and their contributions are improving standards hugely. Good luck [smile}

[oliverboliverbutt]

Just thought I'd throw it in that around year 1 and 2 spaces open up because children leave.
My dd went right into a fabulous state school with outstanding reports/sats in year three and was not on any waiting list.
This year coming up, two more spaces in her class are opening.
If you check into the school of your choice after a year or two, there may be a space.

[LadyMuck]

Looking at your dates, I would say that I had visited most of the state schools within this equivalent term. I don't think that you are too early at all, but, as i keep emphasising, do watch out for changes in headteachers.

[LadyMuck]

I would have to say that they are not necessarily keen, but no-one actually turned me away. I had looked at most of the primary schools locally in the year when I would have made an application to nursery school (as of course it could impact which nursery I would have chosen). I only revisited schools in our year of selection where there had been a change in head.

Go round a few, and i suspect that you will soon find which you are happy with. But try not to get hooked by the impossibly oversubscribed ones!

[pasturesnew]

Thanks for comment about English as 2nd language. I should have been aware of that as DH mainly spoke Dutch at home before starting school (although FIL is English).

Not looked around all of the relevant local state schools yet, just those with nurseries. DS won't start school until Sept 2011 as he'll be old for his year. But private schools obv take admissions earlier. Can I look round state schools a year before LEA admissions time or does that annoy schools?

[LadyMuck]

If you have a choice between a decent state primary school and an OK private school, then why pay? I'm assuming that you are within a reasonable walk of the state school and so don't have to worry about admission. Although we are in South London we are over a mile from our nearest non-church primary school, and ds1 was a millenium baby which pretty much forced the issue of private onto us (though I did toy with renting shortterm closer to our nearest state nonchurch state school in order to get him in!)

In terms of making assumptions about English as a 2nd language, my strong recommendation would be don't. Over half of ds1's class speak another language at home (incl Italian, Greek, Spanish and Japanese), and their English is incredibly fluent. English as a 2nd language doesn't necessarily explain a poor English score.

I'm assuming that you have of course had a good look around your chosen state schools and that you are happy. I definitely wouldn't view either a state or a private school on ones own experience of school - even if your child was going to exactly the same school. The headteacher makes a significant difference to the school imo.

[frogs]

I think some people in some parts of the country don't even consider state, tbh. Either because the money is not an issue, or because they come from families that have always gone private and don't question that. Or because they have a mental image of all inner-city schools as some kind of jungle where kids knife each other and deal drugs in the playground rather than learn to spell and do PE.

Of those who genuinely weigh it up, people can be swayed by wrap-around care, smaller classes, better facilities, fewer difficult kids etc etc. Which is fair enough. But I do think some people talk themselves out of considering state schools on some fairly spurious arguments, tbh. And once you're committed to shelling out £12k a year, you have a vested interest in believing you made the right decision and talking it up (and by extension talking down the alternatives), so it's v. hard to really compare people's experiences.

[sharedplanet]

I think it is really simple, you are lucky that you have the option to go independent if you don't like the Primary that you would be allocated. There certainly should be no hang ups about not splashing the cash! You and DP / DH will obviously have a look around and will know between you which is "the one" where you can imagine DS at and being happiest. I am an emigre from the north also and was a bit scared of urban sauf London schools, but they were mostly lovely and much more exciting than the drab place I attended. In fact it actually reminded me of why I came to London. - Good luck

[fluffles]

Personally i'd say don't underestimate the advantage that you'd have with a shorter school run (can you walk to the local state primary?) and the financial freedom for you or DH to work less and spend more time with the family. Both can have an enormously positive effect on children growing up - school isn't everything (although they do spend a lot of time there).

Good luck in your decision.

[pasturesnew]

All v good points being made here, v reassuring, thank you! Am a bit surprised that noone had come on to massively big up the private system yet, is it something people actually only do at private level if the state admissions don't work out for them? I thought some people were keen on private education all the way, but is it just secondaries people really care about? Or is that for evening posters only who are currently slaving away to pay the fees? I am taking leave today to wait in for deliveries from the John Lewis clearance

[frogs]

Like dino I have had kids in primary school in Hackney, and it's been fine. A 5yo is a 5yo, wherever they come from -- they learn to read, write and play a lot. At that age they're hardly hanging out late at night round the back of the chipshop drinking and smoking, so the home backgrounds of their classmates is really not an issue.

2s is fine for an Ofsted inspection -- a lot of the things Ofsted look at are a bit left-field anyway from a parental pov.

And London being london, there is a high level of population movement, so you can always hedge your bets by staying on the waiting list for any schools you don't get offered places at -- places do come up all the time at even the most desirable schools. So if 18 months down the line it really isn't working, you'll almost certainly have a range of other possibilities.

[1dilemma]

Oh I'm sure you did p I'm still shocked that LA could suggest it and that you as a gov body felt able to agree to it (and sorry for the children) do the parents know their dcs are being banished like this from the start of their schooling?

[PollyParanoia]

hello, I too could have written your post, Pastures. We have three children and our local school in v urban London area got some pretty poor sats. We considered private as can afford it and we weren't at all impressed by the ones we visited. We then actually went to our local school and it was so much better in terms of atmosphere, head and facilities. It was such a relief to make the decision to go there and so far I'm really really impressed (and the sats have improved as well as reputation of the school as a whole). Generally I think primary education has improved immensely from my day. My ds is also happy and enthusiastic.
Despite all this, I'm always questioning our decision just because everyone surrounding us makes such huge financial and transportational (word?) sacrifices to go elsewhere. But I am worrier - hence my name. The way I look at it is, give it a go and you can always change (reverse journey, ie private to state, seems much harder). Schools in london have a lot of movement so you can always get in somewhere private later and so worst case scenario you'll have had a few years of free education on your doorstep and you will have felt part of your community. Don't worry about disruption to your child - I know lots of private school kids who get moved around too.
PS the sats don't tell you how your child will do and I don't think for a minute dcs won't reach required standard

[pasturesnew]

I promise the governing body went into it very thoroughly indeed, we took a lot of persuasion, we were ringing each other up, e-mailing and had a special meeting to focus on it in addition to the general meeting where it was raised. So it is not something governors agree to lightly. It is the LAs we need to worry about!

[ingles2]

he'll be fine pasturesnew....
As you're a governor and obviously have your head screwed on the right way, you'll have a pretty fair idea of what you're looking for I'm sure...
As others have said, have a look at the ofsted, but don't place too much emphasis on it. Make sure you know your dc well, what sort of environment will inspire him, he'll be happy at.
I cocked up first time round and thought out local village school would be fine, what with being a supportive parent and all. It had a good ofsted.
It wasn't a good school, behaviour and discipline was poor, academically it was poor, SATs results were crap, but ofsted really praised it's meagre achievements.
New school has a satisfactory ofsted. Academically it's stronger, it's forward thinking but has strong discipline and community. Suits my boys much much better, so just goes to show you.
Look for the little things btw... I always thought it was quite telling that at our first primary, none of the teachers who had primary aged children educated them there... New school all the teachers and the head have children in the school.

[1dilemma]

sorry full

[1dilemma]

Oh and I'm guessing pn is se London from the comments about local private schools not being new (sorry p to talk about you in 3rd person on your thread )

[1dilemma]

I am truely shocked about the schooling arrangements for children being admitted to your school if I were a parent there I'd be up in arms about it and I'm surprised as a gov body you felt able to agree to that

Eldon I think all the W. ones expanding are going to open right through there was a piece about it on website together with another one about birth rates in the local mag on the same day which made me laugh putting the two together (and working out that I think 180 dcs are still going to be without a reception place in Sept.)

I didn't ompare the two list though because most of the schools are miles away so I might be wrong