Class of 11 versus class of 30?

[voodoothatyoudo]

I know this may seem like a no brainer to some but I'm torn between a private school with a class of 11 for dd1 and a state school with a class of 30

TBH we were not considering private but dd1 didn't originally get into the state school and panicking I enrolled her at the private. They've now decided to add on an extra class so she's in - Howver now we're a bit confused as we'd sort of bought in to the private myth

If we drop out of the private school we will have to pay them a penalty of £4800 - term's fees plus a deposit. That's an incentive for staying. Otoh it is a drive away, the state school is an easy walk.

Also I'm actually concerned 11 in dd's class (as it stands now) is actually too small. There'll be around six girls (there is a parallel class too so a few more she may know superficially) but is that a big enough friendship pool, knowing how vile little girls can be? I've seen the work they're doing at the private school and it's extremely impressive (nor is it a hot house) and I'm not surprised with all that one-on-one attention they get but I do worry it may not be ideal from a friendship pov.

But I also worry she may - like others - not get enough attention in the state school. Anyway, ultimately, class size pros and cons will be the decider. We can afford private but would rather not pay if we don't have to, not least because I believe in supporting the local school. Thanks in advance for any help.

[ingles2]

it's not a no brainer imo...
My boys were in tiny classes which worked ok when they were in infants. As they got older it became much more of a problem. I moved them to a larger school (90 pupils a year as opposed to 10) for yr 3 and 4 and it has been the making of them. Especially my youngest who is a quiet, quirky little lad.

[smee]

's okay stopping at - you were right and I was wrong, and you didn't sound forceful, just correct. Though actually I do know a couple of private schools who don't use TA's, so the ratio question is definitely a question to ask voodoo. Listen to ingles2, she is wise .

[pooka]

No brainer - go for the local option.

Is the state option likely to be fully subscribed given that the new class only just agreed?

Also, would if I were you do some research into the private school wrt their break even levels. Have a local school that was closing (though now they're considering letting boys attend) because of falling class sizes resulting from recession and poor investments. At one stage the class size had dropped, I understand, from 11 to 6, at which point the school was no longer financially viable. If the state school is oversubscribed I would be concerned about prospects of re-entering the state system locally if private school does not work out for whatever reason.

[LetsEscape]

It's interesting to read different peoples comments about the merits of class size and I would agree smaller is better at first slightly larger is great for preparation for larger secondary school and for simply having more opinions in a discussion.
My children are in coed school and have been in classes of about 14 with full-time TA . Generally the classes amalgamate above year 4 or 5 as expats leave and other children move on. Few newcomers are accepted after year 2. This works really well as the children really need smaller classes when younger and it means there is enough help for changing, hearing everybody read daily and so the curriculum pace keeps going. They fit much more in the day. One teacher once told me that she had transferred from the state sector and in her previous excellent school the children did in a full day what our class did by 12pm! It left lots of time for sports, play rehearsals, adding extra languages or just exploring someone's question etc. My eldest child was delighted when the two classes joined to a pretty large 26 in a class, still with TA. His secondary school has 20 in a class so he is well prepared for finding his place. He also said it was quite nice not to be so intense... you could take a breather in the large class but not the small one where you could be asked something at any point.

The local school issue is really important. I'm sure the registrar will tell you what the catchment is so you can work out if she will have local friends. A prep school will have a larger catchment and she may have local friends after all!

[Littlefish]

Good post Pooka.

I'm a teacher with experience of working in both state and primary schools.

I've taught classes of 12, 16, 20, and 23 - 30.

In my experience, anything under 20 is too small. I think that small classes are extremely pressured for both children and teachers. Any difficulties with behaviour, or personality clashes between children are magnified. I also think that there is not enough of a social mix for children in such small classes.

For me, the perfect size is about 20 - 22.

[ingles2]

Why Thank you Smee
Littlefish is totally right about behaviour being magnified. ds2 had problems with a boy who was a bit of a bully. He became this huge larger than life character in ds' mind, mainly because he just couldn't get away from him and there very few others to dilute the situation. It's worth bearing in mind anyway.

[trickerg]

So agree Littlefish. 24 for me is PERFECT size!
Children become ultra-demanding and attention-seeking when numbers go under 20.

And how do you get children to work in groups? How do they learn to bounce ideas off each other?

[IkeaHighchair]

I wouldn't underestimate the power of having a school within walking distance.

All the friends on the doorstep

Playdates and parties will all be doable (I know someone who was recently expected to drive their DC 40+miles for a birthday party because the "catchment" is SOOOOO much bigger).

Easier to join extra-curricular activities in your area with people she knows (e.g. all hte Brownies will be from local school....or dance school or whatever).

Have you asked what the class size will actually be in the new school - as has been said they may actually be smaller than 30 anyway if they have responded to demand.

Personally - I think I would be going to the local. Although the financial comitment you have already made makes it tough....but that is only 1 term out of the next 21 that you have lost IYSWIM

[gladders]

think 11 per class is just too small - children can be so nasty - at least in a larger class each there is a larger pool of potential friends. In a class of 11 there might only be 5 girls?

my ds is in a class of 24 at an independent school which is within walking distance - perfect combination IMO

[Fruitysunshine]

I enrolled my DD in private at year 3 last Sept. She has come on leaps and bounds academically although it is not an academically pushy school but she has had friendship issues and I think it has been exacerbated by the fact it is a small class of 13. But, I do believe that her overall education is far better and she really enjoys all the activities she does at school that she would not do at a state school.

Cost is a big factor but having seen how well she has developed we will continue to put her and our younger daughter (when she gets to that age) through private education.

My son went to a state school and we could not afford private then and there is NO comparison in the quality of care and education given to an individual child in my opinion.

[voodoothatyoudo]

thank you for messages so far have internet problems so will read properly when things improve and muse and report back

[LadyHooHa]

An afterthought: DS has just brought home a pile of work from this term (he breaks up on Friday). What's most striking is how much is hand-written by his teacher. His spelling lists, handwriting lists and so on are all hand-written by her - and are written specifically for him. Each child has different lists, comprehension tests and so on, depending on the level that they are working at. I think this would be less likely to happen in a class of 30 - no teacher would have the time to do it, even if they wanted to!

[LadyHooHa]

PS Talbot - really? DS's class (11 pupils) has one, as does DD's class (16 pupils). They also have reading assistants.

[trickerg]

LadyhooHa - Why would a teacher handwrite all these things. Surely s/he has access to modern technology? Looks to me like that teacher is not living in the real world. No-one writes out spelling lists by hand now, and yes, sometimes we do personalise lists.

That teacher has a serious issue of time management.

[LadyHooHa]

Sorry, trickerg - I will not let that pass. She's the best teacher I've ever come across either as a pupil or a parent.

She handwrites in order to demonstrate exactly how she wants the children to join up their letters. And she has beautiful writing.

(And, yes, she does Do Modern Technology too!)

[bellabina]

Normally, you would only have to loose you deposit.

Once a child starts education in the private sector, you are unlikely to take them out
of that system.

[stoppingat3]

Trickerg - our pre prep teacher handwrites our my ds's spellings to show how to join the letters, not sure how well cursive font would come out although I can't say I've ever tried.
In year 4 they get a typed list with either 12, 16 or 20 on depending on how they do.
Having said that sometimes they are photocopied as I think there are others with the same spellings (mainly tailored) I will have to have words tomorrow!
Bellabina - normally (at the schools we looke at anyway) you have to give a full terms notice to remove the child from school. Therefore the OP would lose one terms fees as she didn't tell the school at Easter that the would not be there in September.

[voodoothatyoudo]

Thanks everyone, broadband up and running again

Always with mn there's a huge variety of responses directly contradiciting each other!

I am inclined to the local option for the reasons many have mentioned above to do with convenience, local friends etc plus I do worry the other school will have other drop outs as I have seen the class lists and it's a very international bunch who, I suspect, will come in and out according to their parents' jobs

We just have a few issues with the way the classes will be organised in the local school but if I can resolve them we will just have to wave goodbye to the money - I am also going to ask the private school if we change our minds within a year if they might let us have those fees on account, I think they need business pretty badly so might be amenable

[pigswithfludontfly]

That's a great idea Voodoo re the fees on account (damn why didn't I think of that!!)

I have had to make a similar decision recently and we went with the local state school. I'm happy with the decision for now but know we can always move after reception if we're disappointed.

[voodoothatyoudo]

Did you lose the money too, pigs?

I'm not saying they'll agree but I shall give it a go

[whereeverIlaymyhat]

Voodoo - do write and ask them to consider waving the notice as she hasn't actually started it may be unfair contract terms and un-enforcable, I removed my child from private on day 3 of term because she hated it and went to court and won.

[pigswithfludontfly]

We lost the deposit - managed to tell them the night before the first day of term so didn't have to pay a term's fees. I am really kicking myself that we didn't ask them to keep it open for a year.....damn! Is it too late now??

[Builde]

Hello,

My infant teacher friends (and mother!) say that a class under 20 is very boring to teach. Also, there can be issues with friendship groups and parties with too few children. E.g. if you invite 4 girls but not 5 it looks a bit horrible! Their ideal class size is 25.

Also, state school reception classes have two adults; a teacher and a teaching assistant. There are also lots of other adults helping out in the earlier years. (Helping mummies, nice grannies, child-care trainees)

[Littlefish]

Builde - state school reception classes don't necessarily have a teacher and a teaching assistant. It's not statutory. Also, not all classes have parent or grandparent helpers.

[whereeverIlaymyhat]

And not all mummy/granny helpers have a clue what they are doing, some are more of a hinderance.