3 tier system collapsing! what will happen next?

[GypsyMoth]

hi

it looks likely our school system here is going to collapse. when we moved here four years ago,the system had been apparently "saved" with parental backing and local mp's being involved. but now,its happening again....funding issues perhaps,not entirely sure,but there always seems to be someone saying we will lose it.

my question is.....what will happen in terms of the school buildings? we have a smallish lower school here in our village,and a lovely,large upper school,which is also sixth form college. the middle school is in the next village. and how do they merge? this is going to be very disruptive for our children....has anyone got any experience of how this is to be managed?

for the record,i think the 3 tier system has benefitted my dc enormously and would like it to stay. i will attend all the parents protest meetings to fight to keep our school system.....but i think it will be to no avail.

any thoughts?

3 tier systems v. unpopular with LAs as the research shows that every time pupils move, performance suffers, so (the theory is!) overall pupils do better in 2 tier systems than like-for-like in 3 tier systems. And no, sorry, I don't have a link to the data but that's what LAs seem to be using to justify their decisions. I know Warks closed their middle schools in the 90s, Norfolk are a good way down the line and Suffolk are just starting to make the changes too.
[rolls eyes madly emoticon]

yes karise,got it too. comes in 2014/2015 here. our lower school will have to accomodate about 150 extra pupils,though don't know how!! it says parents will have a voice,but hold no hope there.

I went through the early stages of this as a teacher in (Worcestershire) 3 years ago. I'm off to bed now but will come and read the whole thread tomorrow.

This is my experience in Worcestershire:

LA decided to "consult" with schools and parents re. going from 3 tier to 2 tier for a number of reasons. I believe they are as following (although we never really got a clear answer).

Every initiative/curriculum/support package from the government is aimed at the 2 tier system. LAs which run a 3 tier system, therefore, spend more and work harder to support a 3 tier system (which costs more money).

There is the expense of having an entire extra layer of schools which cost a great deal to run.

The educational/emotional benefit of 3 tier is unproven, compared with the financial benefit of 2 tier.

Children's attainment suffers each time there is a major transition, so the fewer transitions, the better.

Falling roles meant that there were spaces in most schools, and the review meant that certain schools would close, making the LA more cost effective.

First, a list of the closing schools was published.

Then, they nominally closed ALL the schools on 31st August 2007 and re-opened as Primary and Secondary Schools on 1st September. Effectively, they closed all middle schools, but rather than simply require the middle school staff to apply for new jobs, it was felt fairer for ALL staff to have to re-apply.

First, temporary governing bodies were created from combined first and middle school governing bodiess. They then started by appointing all the Headteachers, then Deputy's etc. All secretaries, caretakers, teachers, TAs, lunchtime supervisers etc. had to be interviewed. Strict guidelines were in place to ring-fence jobs in the affected region to ensure that as many people as possible were re-deployed.

In terms of the children - in 2006, First schools kept their Year 5s, which meant that by September 2007, those Year 5s were Year 6s, giving a full primary school.

Those children in the middle school stayed there, but the number of year groups in the middle schools got smaller until the final two year groups (7 & 8) moved across to the secondary schools together.

In the intervening years, a major building project started to extend/remodel/update suitable schools. In the meantime, children were educated in temporary classrooms, generally on the Primary and Secondary sites.

In spite of all of the above, I still feel that going to 2 tier was the right thing to do.

My fingers are tired now! If anyone has read the above and wants to ask any questions or comment, I'll be back later.

hi littlefish.

we just had the school closure lists yesterday. and proposals for the other schools. i think the way you broke it all down seems alot easier to digest!!

i just feel sad losing our lovely middle school which has been a fantastic help to my dc. sentimental i guess!

i'm resigned now to these changes. our lower school will be the primary. its full. they have little huts as classrooms as it is. no room to expand it. school field is tiny. and its ofsted is never brilliant either.

many people speak of moving,more upheaval for the kids anyway!

LittleFish - I just don't understand aspects of this. We are a little further behind. I think that we (Leicestershire) are going to a wholley 2 tier at some point in teh defined future. I haven't seen any specific plans/timelines - although I believe there is a target date for completion.

In my specific area Primaries go up to Yr6.
Middle does Yr7, 8 & 9 (approx 900 pupils)
High does Yr10, 11, 12 & 13. (approx 900 pupils + 6th form)

So the primaries - I am asusming that there will be no change in my local area as teh current primaries are full primaries. (Other primaries in teh county do only go to Yr5).

Surely - given that the middle and high schools are on different sites, and they are both big enough to be secondaries in their own right, it would make more sense to change them both into secoondary schools each with a non overlapping catchment area of ~180 pupils per intake? They both appear to have good and distinct facilities so they both appear to be able to support Yrs 7-11. Why close some and rebuild?

Surely the council has the capacity to educate all of it pupils within the LEA (?). You just need to change the middle schools into secondaries with smaller year groups, and change the high schools into secondaries with smaller year groups. I guess the only time this would be an issue is when they middle and high schools are quite small. Or am I missing something?

well I went to middle school in Bedford and it failed me miserably - so I'm biased. Think they should be 2 tier

oooo Tiffany - on the closures list..........is Abbey on there????

although I should say that Northampton went 2 tier (from 3) in the last few years and their Primary (and many of the Senior as well) schools are mostly abysmal (though admittedly don't know how bad they were as 3 tier LOL)

Hi Perfect

I don't know the exact situation for your area, but would like to reply to this comment "Surely the council has the capacity to educate all of it pupils within the LEA (?). You just need to change the middle schools into secondaries with smaller year groups, and change the high schools into secondaries with smaller year groups. I guess the only time this would be an issue is when they middle and high schools are quite small. Or am I missing something?"

I suspect that one of the reasons most LEAs decide to go to 2 tier is because it is more efficient in terms of finance and resources. It is often, also, because there are falling roles, or spaces in schools which then cause the schools to be financially inefficent.

LEAs simply can't afford to run schools with smaller year groups. I don't know about secondary figures, but I know that Primary schools in my area need 28 children per class to break even.

Falling roles/spaces in schools will therefore have the effect of them needing to close some schools, which will have the effect of making the other secondary schools fill up, and therefore, be more cost efficient.

In terms of the Primaries, I should think that there will be plans afoot to make all Primaries go up to Year 6.

hi FAQ

yes,Abbey is on the list to close. with surplus written next to it!!

our middle school is proposed to clos. yet a school letter home has just stated that they have been allocated £300,00 for a new classroom block!! ridiculous if its to close..

oh thank lordy be for that - it was rubbish when I attended their nearly 20yrs ago, and a recent nosey at the ofsteds revealed it's still rubbish now

ILoveTIFFANY, please do not be resigned to the middle schools closing - Bedford Borough Council is undertaking a consultation exercise with parents and the wider public and no decision has been taken either way (though I think it is fair to say that the council prefer the 2 tier system). If you feel strongly then you should take this opportunity to make your views heard by completing the response form included in the consultation document, or online at www.bedford.gov.uk/bsfconsultation. There is also a blog www.savemiddleschools.wordpress.com which will give you more information.
Most people supported the three tier system when the County Council held a similar exercise a few years ago, and the councillors voted against changing to the two tier system. There is even more incentive for the councillors to listen to the voters this time round because of the local elections in a couple of weeks, so I don't think anyone can dismiss the consultation as just going through the motions.

Had time to fully read the proposal for Bedford CC this morning!
It seems that unlike your area LITTLEFISH and the experience I saw in Northants, Bedford will not be keeping years 5&6 back in their lower schools, but sending them to an ever diminishing middle! This means our current years 2&1 will be spending just 2 or 3 years at middle before joining the new upper/secondary in one lump altogether
This seems like madness for those with closing middle schools as teachers are going to get jobs elsewhere leaving only the teachers with no choice left to run the middle schools down
So, far from getting them into 2 tier as soon as possible, our younger kids will have 3 changes in just 3 years!!
Will be filling in the form on the website ASAP!

So what would class as a small year group then? Our intake at middle school is around 300-350 pupils/year (and I believe rising). To me that seems like a lot(my secondary was big in my eyes and had about 180 per year).

Or so you mean that there may be other secondaries in the area with falling roles which will expand if one of these schools close? Surely sending halve to each establishment is still viable (and I would rather there was a smaller intake TBH)? They also both have large community facilities etc.) Maybe here they will keep both...as I say I am not sure there is a plan yet - other than the intention to move to 2 tier. Where would I fin out about such a plan if it exists? tried looking on LEA page and found nothing about moving to a 2 tier at all - it was certainly big news 18m-2yrs ago though.

Do you know a parent governor? They might help!

will certainly be filling out all the forms to help fight this!

it will really affect ds2 and 3 if their proposals actually happen.

Did anyone go to the Bedfordshire meeting this week? I couldn't make it but am keen to hear what was said, especially after last nights papers that said all upper school head's were in favour of the change!