Are parents responsible for childs behaviour????

[Slink]

This is my next essay title, your opinions please would greatly appreciated.THANK YOU

[Slink]

Thank you thank you all you have given me lots to go on in my essay i have great arugument now
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[happymerryberries]

Thanks for that. I have don a few searches on the internet and have linked up with a group of 4 secondary schools that have a nurture group running. I'm meeting wit the ebss to discuss it , but I have a month to get some more background reading done.

[nikkim]

Haven't read all this so I apologise and for leaping in and probably offending people. From my own expereinces with my daughter most of the time - if not all!!! - she is naughty because I cant't be bothered - or am too tired - or too busy to parent her properly. A case in point being that my daugher behaved like an angel all day but I came home shattered and tried to dump her in front of the telly while I had a cuppa. She got bored and started running around with the dog knocking stuff over.

of course we are all entitled to a break but if we are not perfect parents 24/7 we can't expect perfect kids.

[Lara2]

happymerryberries, my SNA is finding the website address for me. She said that it originally all started in London, but ours was part of the Hampshire initiative. Out of interest, I Googled 'Nurture Groups' and 'Boxall Profile' and came up with tons of interesting information on websites.
I really like the Boxall profiles they have often confirmed my suspicions about a child's needs. You may have to adapt them for older kids, but try a couple first out of interest. There may be an equivilent for older kids already out there, you never know. I think it would be SO difficult to score properly if you adapted it yourself - maybe the results would come out skewed. A bit like trying to do a DEST test on a child that was too old. You have to think very carefully about the dynamics of the group you set up, or it could all be a waste of time. And unfortunately, there's never enough room for all the children you want to put in - that's almost the hardest part.

[happymerryberries]

Oh and Lara 2 I have a copy of the Boxall profile, but we will have to adapt it a bit, I tink for older kids. Very probing tho arn't they?

[happymerryberries]

Jimjams I wasn't having a go at children with sn who can't use a knife and a fork. I was commenting on the number of NT children who can't do it either, at the age of 14. And for them it is that they have never been shown how and/or eaten things that need a knife and a fork. Many of them seem to exsist on sweets, crisps, chips and pizza all topped off with fizzy additive rich drinks. i have lost count of the kids I have seen eating a Mars bar and drinking coke for breakfast.....is it any wonder they are ott in the classroom

[Jimjams]

ah - was just wondering Lara. I always assume that people would be horrified if I said that ds1 can't use a knife and fork (he can use a spoon- if he decides to) at almost 6, but that's because he doesn't eat anything that requires a knife and fork (and getting him to eat anything is a complete nightmare and a whole different story). DS2 - just 3- can use a knife and fork though. Thinking about it ds2's self help skills have always been quite advanced, because I'm so busy doing things for ds1 (such as feeding him). Nursery commented on it recently- I said it was because ds2 has had to do it himself. From before a year old he's fed himself his yoghurt whilst I've attempted to spoon it into ds1. I get ds2 to fetch things for me/ds1 all the time as well.

[Lara2]

Jimjams,we have plenty of SN children in Y1, but these aren't always the children we were talking about. I have children who are perfectly capable of doing something - like taking off their shoes and socks ( a doddle compared to putting them on), who really are very reluctant to do it and want the adults to help. I'll ALWAYS help children who have a particular need, in ANY area, but children should do the things that they can for themselves.

happymerryberries, I'll ask my SNA tomorrow where she got all the info to start the nurture group. I think initially it was a County driven thing - we're in Hampshire. At the moment we have a Y1 & a Y2 group running on 2 afternoons. They tend not to be the SN children because they are already catered for and have good provision. The children in the nurture group are the ones we have identified through knowing what their home life is like(neglectful), and the results of the Boxall profiles that we do on those we are thinking of joining the group. It's more a social/emotional need than an SN need that is the reason for being in the group.

[happymerryberries]

We are looking to target children in y6 who schools think will have probelms integrating into a large secondary school. Some will have sn (they are very keen to identify children with asd) and some will have ebd, some will come from dysfunctional families where children are not socialed as they are never spoken too, some cannot eat with a knife and fork and a very dirty. Obviously we will be looking at diferent stratagies for the different needs.

[Jimjams]

although children are going to school at such a young age these days. Also do children in the unit have some form of SN? It makes things much harder (for the parent). Ds2 wants to be independent and likes trying to do stuff for himself. He needs encouraging to learn self help skills. DS1 on the other hand needs teaching, by physcially prompting him through every stage repeatedly and repeatedly and repeatedly. He doesn't copy, so doesn't just try things out. Far far far harder for any parent. (we have lesson plans to teach him basic things like putting a sock on- not that he's remotely able to do that yet- ds2 3 years his junior is happy to have a go).

[happymerryberries]

OOOH, interested in any info that you can give me on the nurture group, please, as I am trying to set up a secondary nurture group in the school I work at. I agree with you that we often do far too much for kids. I had one girl of 13 who broke 2 test tubes through being careless and expected me to clear up after her! Fat chance!!!

[Lara2]

My SNA said such a good thing the other day. We were discussing children in the Year 1 unit who seem particularly 'helpless' - poor self-help skills. She said:
The problem is, alot of the parents do the things they shouldn't for the children, but don't do the things they should be doing.

She runs our KS1 Nurture Group, and the more I've thought about this, the more true it seems. My son moans because I make him wheel his own tuba to the car before and after band practice (he's 12), because vertually ALL the other parents carry their children's instruments - from flutes to trumpets!! Are we nurturing a whole generation of helpless children who expect us to do it all for them, and consequently kick up if it doesn't all go their way? Sometimes I think we are.

[KatieMac]

Tallulah - surely by asking for help (whether you get help on not) you are taking responsibility for your childs behaviour.

By refusing to take responsibility - you would simply say 'I can't cope' and walk off.

If no help is offered then a 'parent who assumes responsibility' would not say "OK I've done my best - now society must sort it out" but try to obtain that help - however hard/difficult/impossible that is.

In my opinion (which is purely mine - and I accept it may be flawed) taking responsibility for their children is often prime concern of a lot of parents of children with Special Needs. They don't say "I can't cope", they appear (to me) to spend their lives trying to make their child's life better. That is the act of responsible parents.

[tallulah]

KatieMac, I assume all your children are NT, or you wouldn't be making such sweeping statements. When you have a child who is later dx with ADHD & you ask for help & they tell you outright you are a bad parent without offering any assistance, what then?

Slink, if this is an essay, presumably you'll need to quote established published works/papers, & not just anecdotal evidence?

[Cam]

I think the offspring of the same parents each have a different relationship with those parents depending on factors such as personality, gender, position in family etc. Plus all children are born with different personality traits. Values are instilled by the parents and some child development writers believe that values are set by the age of 3. I live in the town which has the appalling distinction of producing the boy who was jailed last week at the age of 12. He has a criminal record as long as your arm including drink driving , has been the subject of many ASBO's, curfew orders etc, none of which have had any effect whatsoever. His parents claimed in court that they had no control over him.

[FairyMum]

My friend has always been an angel. Very well behaved,kind to others, good at school etc. I would say she has suppotive and resopnsible parents. Her brother, on the other hand, has always been a bit of a tearaway. A bully we were all afraid of at school, got into soft drugs in his teens, hang out with the wrong crowds etc etc. He's okey now in his thirties, but I do wonder why the offspring of the same parents can be so different?

[kkgirl]

Well, he is nearly 11. He doesn't seem to have any reason to have kicked the boy, he says that the boy took the football they were playing with.He didn't seem to think it was a big deal, but after we had talked to him, and said that he should be careful, and how dangerous it can be to hurt someone else, he was remorseful, and by bedtime, tearful.
His whole year group, last year of primary, seem to suddenly be very aggressive towards each other, and can very easily wind each other up. I don't want to make a big deal out of each, but on the other hand, don't want him to get into trouble, want him to be able to stand up for himself when provoked, but not be the provoker.

[paolosgirl]

I think you have to take responsibility for the child and their actions, but as a parent you don't necessarily have control over what they do. You should set guidelines, boundaries and limits, instill good values and morals, and discipline them when necessary, but it's simply not possible to have complete control over another human being all of the time.

[Caligula]

Yes - it's interesting that of the family I'm thinking of, one joined the police, one joined the army, and one is a druggy drop out atm with a bit of a drink problem. So two sought out very strict boundaries and one abandoned them altogether.

Hmm, difficult one kkgirl. I think you'd have to try and find out what was going on in DS's mind when he kicked this other boy in the groin. Was it a pre-emptive strategy, to ensure that this boy didn't think he was a "soft touch" and to make sure he wasn't going to start bullying him, or was it out of control behaviour, or wanting to show off in front of his peer group? How old is he?

[happymerryberries]

I agree with you caligula. Children push till they find a boundry. If they don't find it at home they will push in school (they all do a bit I realise!), and if they don't get the boundry in school they will push somewhere else.

[Caligula]

I wouldn't say all kids would go against the trend, if that were true, chaotic parenting wouldn't be a problem (in fact, it would be recommended)! More often, kids cry out for boundaries, and eventually if they are not provided with any, either construct their own (sometimes bizarre and slightly wrong ones, as in the case of these kids who go on to take on the Ersatz mothering role in the absence of a functioning mother) or they give up and decide to be boundary-less (probably more often).

What ages are you talking about Slink? Toddlers, school age, adolescent?

[kkgirl]

Interested to hear what your discipline strategies are though?
Do you mean smacking, taking away priveledges or what?
I am finding mine more and more of a challenge lately, and would be interested in the most effective way to deal with it.

One example my eldest ds kicked a boy in the groin today, at school as the boy took the football ds and friends were playing with.

The school have handled it according to their procedures, but what would you do as a parent?

[happymerryberries]

True and I have too. In fact I have taugh two half siblings, one is well turned out, organised and very mature and the other is constantly running away from home, is dirty and totaly disorgnanised. One of my best mates comes from a family of alcoholics but has made a roaring success in life. But these are the exceptions to the rule in my experience. For a child to buck the trend takes a lot of self determination.

It doesn't mean that you have to be a perfect parent, just a good enough one. But I think that most of us would agree that inconsistant or non-existant dicipline is not going to help a child become a happy well ballanced adult wouldn't we? Or else why should any of us bother....Much easier to take the easy route if the kids will all miraculously go against the trend?

[KatieMac]

This may not be a popular point of view.....

I think that parents must take responsibility for their childrens behaviour.

This can be direct by applying discipline boundaries etc or indirect eg by saying that I/we cannot adapt/modify this behavour and we need help.

Saying that your 12 yo is uncontrollable/is badly behaved is not a let out, you should be making arrangements so that some control can be applied/good behaviour taught. This may be by way of medical help, psycological help, social help etc. In doing that you are taking responsibility.

But in the end it is the parents who are responsible for a child behaviour.

[Caligula]

I've also seen it the other way round though HMB - chaotic, inconsistent parents who could never be bothered to impose boundaries, send their kids to school etc., producing children who then take responsibility for their own stuff (I'm thinking of a child I knew years ago who had a lunatic mother who never had any routine or order and the child did all her own ironing, organised her and her siblings homework etc. by the age of eight, and used to shout at her mother by 8.30PM that the younger children should be in bed. She also grew up to be a policewoman! - talk about a reaction).

Jane 313 - is your friend me?!