A level class sizes

[Tripilates]

Just wondering what average A level class size is across the country in the state sector (I'm aware independents have much smaller classes..) and if there's any consistent difference between schools which have 6th forms and 6th form colleges? My DD is in A2 History class of 25 at a local state 6th form college. I feel this is way too large for the poor teacher (same teacher for all lessons) there will be limited chance for discussion and feedback with so many, and as for the essay marking...

[Rosieposy4]

And that i totally agree with

[Lemonsole]

Exactly - PSC class sizes mean that the college cannot take anyone who will need spoonfeeding through the course, and who does not stand a good chance of achieving a pass grade. It would be doing a disservice to that student.

Schools working with classes of 12 or fewer can, of course, lavish them with TLC, and I know of private schools locally that take them in sciences with very low grades, because they don't want to lose the fee income. It's grossly unfair to the student, generally.

It's a bit disingenuous to be sniffy at selection for A level courses in the same way as we are sniffy about selection at 11, as by that stage there is a clear correlation between prior attainment in any given subject, and future success, given the high level of independent study needed at A level.

Hills Road requires A, I understand, and the supposedly marvellous grammars chuck anyone out with more than one or two Bs at GCSE, demanding A*/A to be taught in a tiny class. That's who the 6th form colleges are compared to.

[AtiaoftheJulii]

the supposedly marvellous grammars chuck anyone out with more than one or two Bs at GCSE, demanding A /A to be taught in a tiny class.*

???
Shall we all just make up wild generalisations now?

[Lemonsole]

Well, while I will readily fess up to not having studied the prospectus of every grammar school in the country, I have looked at a good number, and they all require A*/A for the subjects to be studied, and this is fairly typical in terms of entry requirements, allowing one or two Bs only per GCSE portfolio.

There's no doubt at all that their results tend to be stellar. But when classes are around half the size of those in Sixth Form colleges, and entrance requirements more stringent, it is the latter that look to me to be doing a trickier and far better job, without the constant oohs and ahhs of admiration in the media. The proportion of top grades achieved in the best 6th form colleges is not massively different from that achieved in the grammars.

[AtiaoftheJulii]

Having peered at your image, an average of 49 points over 8 GCSEs is e.g. 4 A's and 4 B's. Plus whatever your other 1-4 GCSEs are. And I can't see any A* requirements on the page you've copied.

TiP gave a slightly exaggerated impression of how selective PS is. You gave a bit more detail. No one is denigrating the results of sixth form colleges - I'm going to a Farnborough open evening this month and am very impressed with their results.

So I wasn't sure why you needed to chuck in some inaccuracies about grammar schools.

[Ta1kinpeece]

TiP gave a slightly exaggerated impression of how selective PS is.
link please

and FWIW I know that LemonSole is a lot more clued up about how PS works across the board that I could ever hope to be.

[Lemonsole]

Because it was part of a general response to the general suggestion that good results in Sixth Form colleges are somehow down to selection, so the intention was to first of all to show that they're a lot less selective than most schools.

We've also had a week or so of hearing how wonderful grammar schools are, yet their high levels of selectivity, plus tiny classes, produce very similar results as Sixth Form colleges. The OP was asking about class sizes; I was trying to show that they don't have much of an impact, as results are similar to those schools that are held up to us as offering a gold standard in post-16 education.

Fairly clumsy generalisation? Sure. I'm not spoiling for a fight. I'm just an ardent opponent of selection in education, and don't like it when the very significant achievements of non-selective colleges up and down the country are ignored in favour of the results achieved by schools, who should not be getting anything less, given their optimal teaching conditions.

[Mitfordhons]

Dd has between 12 and 16 in her A2 classes this year in a state grammar. A minimum of five A's at GCSE, ideally an A min in the subjects chosen. In one of her As level this summer she got an E and should have been thrown out, but the subject teacher felt strongly that she should stay. This is purely on the basis that she re sits the exam. That's how they get the amazing results.

[Lemonsole]

... and it stresses that those are the minimum entry requirements. I didn't scan the whole admissions document, but many subjects required A*, so only just meeting the floor level probably wouldn't leave much wriggle room for any choice of subject.

[MsMermaid]

I teach maths and I have 11 in my y12 class. That is unusual as we normally have 15-20 in each class, but this year timetabling means that in my option block there were 27 students wanting to do maths which our head thinks is to many, so we split them into 2 groups, but some have dropped out/changed their mind already so we now have 12 in one group and 11 in the other. We are an ordinary but outstanding state comp.

[Rosieposy4]

Lemonsole
I think we are coming at this from such different angles it is blurring the discussion.
I teach in a basically non selective county ( 3 out of more than 40 secondary schools are grammar and all are gepgraphically rather distant from my school). Selection for schools doesn't really cross my radar.
I am compared to outstanding educational institutions across the country, and told they can cope with large class sizes. That was my original whinge, my labs are stuffed with kids.
I was very interested to hear the class sizes at PS, ( still slightly smaller than mine) for the reason i gave above above mainly but intrigued to hear they are selective.
I am at a non selective school , and the nearest state sixth form college is similar but i am compared to all sixth forms, inc the like of PS ( i still get 64% A-B). I think PS sounds great, i would love to work there if it wasn't 300 miles away from my home and family, but i think we can all accept that with huge classes, it does make a difference if you can restrict your intake, expecially in the sciences to A and A.
And as a size order am i winning the competition no one wants to win of the biggest science A level classes?, i would love a bit of ammo for slt for next year.

[AtiaoftheJulii]

TiP gave a slightly exaggerated impression of how selective PS is.
link please

I'm not rereading the whole thread. You said that PS required A or A* for the A level subjects. I wondered what people who got B's did. Lemonsole pointed out that only B is required for some subjects.

I have personal recent experience of a grammar sixth form and a comprehensive sixth form. There was no difference in class sizes. I don't think setting up strawmen helps a discussion, although I can see you feel hard done by.

[AtiaoftheJulii]

Oops, second para "you" is to Lemon not TiP.

[Tripilates]

Ok, confession! I live in the same area as Peter Symonds but my DC go to the 'other' college, we looked at PS but friendship groups and proximity influenced the choice, it's hard to know accurately how the two compare as our college only publishes A-C pass rate as a statistic and doesn't break it down any further, which frankly is neither use nor ornament I suspect PS get more A/A grades.

I suspect science B grades have to go to the 'other' college nearby

I think it may make a difference, certainly in teacher time for marking, if it's an essay based subject. In history the poor teacher will have 25 plus 4000 word course essays to mark, add suggestions to and (hopefully) remark post corrections before submission, because you can be sure students in independent schools will be getting this as a minimum, I don't care how independent a learner you are, individual tuition and input on this kind of work makes a huge difference, especially as at A level this is the first time they are required to do this kind of in depth essay.

[Ta1kinpeece]

Some kids love Barton, some love Symonds, some love Brock, some love Tauntons
Barton is much less science oriented - and yes, at a push, will let kids with B grades do sciences (one of DS friends is doing so)
from what I gather, Barton is genuinely stronger for humanities
and of course their arts facilities make Symonds look utterly past it
RTC have their specialisms and are building up their A level stream
Itchen of course have a lot of athletics sewn up

the really cool thing round here is that our kids have genuine choice
for both academic and vocational studies