Alleyn's or CLSG?

[whatwouldyouchoose]

DD is in the wonderful position of having to choose between an academic scholarship at Alleyn's and an offer at CLSG. She loves city, but I am leaning more towards Alleyn's which is close to home and she has the scholarship. Some background: she is academic, doesn't care too much about sport although she enjoys it, enjoys music and doesn't feel to strongly about co-ed or single sex. Any opinions on these 2 schools would be much appreciated.

[MortaIWombat]

I've got a kid in a co-ed school, and I wish we'd accepted the girls' school place we were offered, as she's not interested in socialising with boys, so her potential friendship group has been halved. She's still (just) in the junior school, but looking at the senior school, it doesn't seem that unusual for girls to hang out with girls, and boys with boys. A bit of a shame, really.

[summerends]

Being completely neutral about the two schools I would suggest Alleyn's due to the huge advantages of proximity, especially when she is younger, and since from your point of view not much to choose otherwise between them. You could suggest to her that she would be able to switch to CLSG (if she wants to give up coed) for the sixth form if she continues to want the urban vibe then.

[Helpyourself]

Go for Alleyns. The journey to CLSG isn't fun and she's more likely to have local friends at Alleyn's, which as they get older is really important. The fact that that there are 5 Secondary Schools in Dulwich is one of the perks of living here. And don't forget that although travel is free at the moment, that could change- even with an Oyster I'm paying £60/ month for sixth form travel to central London.

[missinglalaland]

OK, I don't have a dog in this fight and wish the OP all wisdom in making the best decision for her dd.

But, I must admit that having lived on the Central Line for 13 years, I have never seen a CLSG girl behaving badly or obtrusively. To be fair, I have never seen teenage girls in school uniforms from any school behaving badly. Boys, that's a different matter, just about all of them have been "high spirited" at times. And girls out of uniform on weekends can be giggly in groups. But really, I couldn't tar a single school as having obnoxious, arrogant children.

[Focusingkingqueen]

Not much help but I have been put off City for my DD by the loud and obnoxious show off behaviour of the city girls coming home on the train in the afternoons. Not just as a one off but I travel with them every day and have done for several years. The behaviour from the girls at other N London girls independent schools and HBS is far quieter and much less showy. The City boys on the other hand tend to be very well behaved, a real credit.

[whatwouldyouchoose]

Thank you all for a very interesting discussion. I thought at the end of last week that I had made my decision, but no, I'm still undecided. It is down to whether CLSG is worth the journey (we are SE so city is doable). Alleyn's would be a very short train journey or a 10 min car journey. As I have mentioned before, league tables don't matter that much to me, I want the right school for my academic, musical, not too sporty DD and I have ruled out JAGS which I don't feel is right for her. CLSG and Alleyn's on the other hand both feel right each one for different reasons.

[Rabbitcar]

I certainly didn't mean to be snobby, so apologies if that came across. I had genuinely not heard of the term 'destination school' before, so thanks for clarifying. And speaking as a North Londoner, I haven't seen any evidence of chips on the shoulders of South London posters here. Maybe I am missing the subtleties! I think all are great schools, and the right choice depends on the child. For some, a longer journey for a school that's higher in the league tables will be better, but for others a local school might be more appropriate. I think posters are saying CLSG is good, but then so are the South London school. I hope everyone finds the right schools for their DCs. X

[VQSV]

Just what exactly have the last few posters contributed to the Alleyn's vs CLSG debate...other than some faux inverted snobbery ??

Look... it's really not that complicated.

The term "destination school" is not some mystical anointing of a school as being superior to any other school...

It is simply a short-hand term to refer to a school where your DD or DS is prepared to undertake a slightly longer commute...(and travel past pretty good schools in the process)..because they and/or their parents feel that the extra journey is worth it...

Not everyone is in a super-convenient central location...
So a discussion of which schools are worth making a bit of extra effort for (commute wise) is perfectly fair as far as I can see...

I've clearly ruffled a few feathers in south London (not that I'm really that bothered...but it really wasn't my intention)...but I am slightly losing the will to continue on this thread...

I really thought all this "chip-on-the-shoulder" business about people living south of the river Thames was some ridiculous urban myth...but the contributions on this thread... are slowly convincing me otherwise.

apologies to the OP for the "car-crash" feeling of recent posts...

[basildonbond]

dd is very bright and very hard-working and if she keeps roughly on her current trajectory she'll do extremely well at school wherever she goes so my quest is for the place where she'll be happiest over the next few years

her prep head suggested St Paul's, however we're in 'defensive' south London and as far as I'm concerned no school is worth a tricky journey - doesn't matter how brilliant it is I don't want my just turned 11 year old having to commute and change tubes etc when she'd be travelling past dozens of schools which would suit her just as well

At the top end, schools' stellar results simply indicate how uber-selective a school is - the more selective, the (slightly) higher results but all the top schools in the country will do well by a bright, motivated child (and frankly they'd probably be fine academically in some of the worst schools in the country too ...)

fwiw I grew up in west London - the schools on my radar were SPGS, G&L, Tiffin Girls and LEH with the 'high' schools (Wimbledon, Putney, Surbiton) being seen as a back-up (this was a while ago ...). I think I was dimly aware that there was a girls' school in the Barbican but wouldn't have been able to tell you its name, had never heard of JAGS or NLCS - I really wouldn't have called any of the girls' schools a 'destination' school - it's a rather silly term when you think about it

[ClaraMaugham]

Rabbitcar I admire your attitude. Several members of my family went to one of the 'destination schools' mentioned above, and in two cases it seriously damaged their self-esteem - which had a lasting impact on their careers. It can be really hard as a parent to overlook the 'best' school in favour of the best fit, but if the result is happy, fulfilled and successful children then is it really a choice?

Incidentally I live in a part of South West London where neither JAGS nor CLSG is ever mentioned, and it's only because I read threads like these that either of them is more than a hazy name to me. I can't see any South London defensiveness above - if anything I'm slightly confused by the lauding of CLSG. I've lived in London all my life and barely ever heard of it.

[Rabbitcar]

Until I saw this thread, I had never heard the term 'destination school'. Surely all schools are local to someone, depending on where you live? I have heard of NLCS, but not JAGS, simply because I live in North London. South Londoners have likewise probably never heard of NLCS. SPGS is somewhere in the middle but didn't appeal to us, so we didn't apply. DD2 has offers from CLSG, NLCS and Channing, and we will probably go for Channing as it's nearer home, ie local to us. As others have said, league tables aren't everything, and quality of life is important.

[VQSV]

1. To the OP: at CLSG open-day they had an interesting + comprehensive map of London which showed where all the girls in the school were coming in from geographically.
   I was surprised how many were coming in from NW8 / NW3 area... and some from much further north as well...but you could ask to see it again to have a look at SW postcodes if it is not already on display on Wednesday.
   
   
2. More generally: my daughter's prep school probably sends as many girls to CLSG as any other school after SHHS...i.e. similar numbers to NLCS...and more than they send to SPGS (for obvious reasons).
   If I were to generalise (which I need to...to avoid writing "War+Peace")
   the families that chose CLSG were the more down-to-earth...and less bothered by manicured lawns + pristine uniforms (hardly surprising when you think of CLSG's urban location)
   Also more likely to have both parents working.
   For some... it was simply the best academic option that they had (maybe having not quite got there with NLCS or SPGS) but for others...there was a strong element of rejecting other schools with a more monied feel in favour of an environment where lifestyle + wealth distractions would be less of an issue.
   (50/50 split between state/independent school intake at 11+ for CLSG...I have no idea how this compares to other schools you are looking at)

[irisha]

League tables are a useful reference to check things quickly, but they all weigh results differently and are just a very rough snapshot of averages.

I would look at GCSEs and A-level by subject, the syllabi/exam boards used for the exams, how many take double science vs triple (because that obviously skews results upwards in sciences, etc), how many subjects kids take, etc. Plus size of the year group, leavers/joiners in sixth form, etc.

I was shocked to discover that at schools like Altrincham Grammar and MGS, for example, a double award science is the standard, not triple. And the former children are only allowed 9 GCSEs. I am not saying it's bad, but the results wouldn't be directly comparable with schools where kids must take triple science and do 10 GCSEs (and allowed to do 11) or where kids must take a GCSE in a creative/practical subject (which is time consuming if not necessarily difficult and for non-creative types would drag the overall average down).

[meditrina]

For league tables, I usually look at The Independent these days (Times behind firewall, Telegraph has too many omissions). 2012 has JAGs ahead, as do many other years. Being down at 23rd in The Times, as mentioned above, was an aberration (I remember looking a lot in the early 00s (before paywall) and it was usually top 15).

By currently fashionable, I mean that in the last few years it has been increasingly talked about: quite a change since about 2000. That is not incompatible with being a long established school.

[Needmoresleep]

Oh, and Alleyns is in competition with Latymer Upper in its claim to be London's top co-ed. Really, really competitive to get into. However again has entry points at 3+ etc and has extended its sibling policy in recent years, and so is not going have the same results as the very selective 11+ and 13+ schools. My impression has always been that entry is a bit of a lottery, and they they will often prefer the "interesting" child to one who is likely to get straight A*s.

Again DC we know there love it.

All three schools have very different feels. Go with your instincts and you almost certainly wont make a wrong decision.

[Needmoresleep]

Hmm

JAGs is not a South London secret. It is the very long established sister school for Dulwich College. It has a huge catchment. Not many from north of the rivers, but including great swathes of SE and SW post codes and stretching into Kent. The Dulwich school bus system stretches a very long way. Indeed one of my comments would have been that by choosing one of these schools you choose whether you want to discover interesting bits of SE or NE London, because you WILL spend part of your weekends for the next 5-7 years picking your daughter up from friends' houses.

I think OP has the right approach. Both these schools will do well by the right child. CLSG might have a slightly better place in league tables but has a smaller cohort and does not take girls at 3+, so will be more selective. The bright girls at both schools will be just as bright, and probably just as well taught. The choice then comes down to different things, like journey and feel. Our DDs are quite capable of deciding which "feels" best for them, and they are the ones doing the commute.

I can claim to be neutral. DD's prep sent girls to both. DD did not want to apply to either. CLSG was too "concrete", JAGS too "jolly hockey sticks". That was her view and she has been very happy with a different choice. Her friends though are equally happy with their choices, and DD continues to come across girls from both schools as part of her extra-curricular activities, who she gets on with well. They are all lucky to be at outstanding schools.

What is however dangerous is to let children think they are somehow better because they are at a "destination" school. DD knows girls who really think they have to be cleverer because they are at "better" schools. She thinks they are silly. I too sometimes come across women in their 50s who still seem to think they are in some way superior because they did better at 11+. That is really silly. Its a long term game. All you can do is make what you think its the best decision for you child at each stage. And dont worry about other people thoughts or priorities.

[VQSV]

meditrina...

How do you define "currently fashionable"?
CLSG has been a popular choice for at least the last 20 or 30 years !!

It was the only London school for girls I had heard of (along with SPGS) before I moved to London...

Even after I had moved to London....and after my daughter was born (and therefore started looking at schools)... I had never heard of JAGS !!

SPGS + NLCS...I will freely admit are consistently at the top of most league-tables (+ believe me... I have collected quite a few) but I can't find one which has JAGS above CLSG.
Most recent Sunday Times one for 2013 has CLSG in 3rd (behind SPGS + NLCS) ...and ahead of Westminster !!
JAGS is in 9th which is a big jump from its ranking of 23rd the year before.
CLSG scores more highly than JAGS on both GCSE + A-levels.

As I indicated in my earlier post...last year maybe not so great for CLSG in terms of Oxbridge...and maybe JAGS did better in this regard (I haven't looked to be honest...because we never considered school)

But things like Oxbridge admissions...I like to look at averages over a few years...as they can jump around a bit year-to-year.
the last table I have for average Oxbridge over a few years puts CLSG slightly ahead but virtually identical with JAGS (literally next to each other in rankings)

Anyway...OP....who we are trying to help...has already said that league tables no big deal for her.

You can cut the irony here with a knife....
I make a post about the cultural differences between CLSG + Alleyns / JAGS etc and how the typical CLSG parent is more relaxed about the "reputation" of the school...and within minutes I have the Dulwich /South London mafia manning the barricades and engaging me in hand to hand combat over league tables etc...

This is exactly the point I was trying to make...

Look...in all seriousness ...I am sure that JAGS is completely fantastic + you are very lucky to have it down there in Dulwich ...but if I were you I would keep it as a little secret to yourselves....so you don't have too many Londoners from across town trying to get in on the act.

[whatwouldyouchoose]

Thank you VSQV, I do agree that CLSG is a London school and that for me is one of its major advantages over our local schools. At this stage in my DD's life I am looking for the school where she will be happy, motivated to learn and reach her potential.

[meditrina]

CLGS is a currently fashionable choice. It's regularly outperformed by SPGS, NLCS and yes JAGS, but because the transport links to the City are quite different to the areas of London where those 3 are located, it's considered by families in a much wider area. That's simple logistics.

[VQSV]

irisha...
you are perfectly demonstrating the London "local-bubble" effect I referred to in my post.

Yes...of course JAGS is closer to CLSG in academic standards than Alleyn's....but I was responding to a thread titled CLSG vs Alleyn's !!
Therefore I did not discuss JAGS in any detail.

You have nearly fallen off your chair in shock + horror because I have bracketed JAGS in a group with SHHS + Alleyn's.
You have taken offence because JAGS gets better academic results than those two other schools...yes it does...it clearly does...but I included it for geographical reasons as a highly regarded school in a similar part of town.

I agree with a lot of your post, irisha , but I think you are not quite giving CLSG enough credit for its cross-London appeal.
You only have to look at the recent threads on here to see the stretch of CLSG's pulling power:
CLSG vs Alleyn's ??
CLSG vs JAGS ??
CLSG vs NLCS ??
CLSG vs SHHS ??
CLSG vs G&L ??
CLSG from West London ??
etc etc
Of course it is not quite in the same category as SPGS...but I think it is a "destination" school.

I can see that this is a close call for the OP..so I would give her the same advice as I gave another poster in one of the numerous CLSG threads I have contributed to:

• Try + speak to Ena Harrop at the Open Day for offer-holders this Wed.

She is the newly appointed Head (currently Director of Studies) and is likely to be running the school for all or nearly all of your daughter's time there.
Not quite sure what matters to you (the other poster was concerned about access to US Universities)...but see if you can pick up any spark that makes the extra-commute seem worthwhile for your daughter.

I'm not sure I will be there...(think we're pretty much decided on school) but if I was...I would be gently probing about recent Oxbridge results....bottom line: last year - good but not great.
A blip ? or part of a wider trend that makes Oxbridge tougher for independent sector vs state sector (big jump in state % intake in recent years at Cambridge).

[whatwouldyouchoose]

My DD has an offer from JAGS as well. League tables are important but not the most important aspect for me and we have ruled JAGS out even though it is higher up compared to Alleyn's because it doesn't feel right for her.

[irisha]

VSVQ, I think some of your points are valid when applied to Alleyn's vs City, but I would disagree when comparing City to JAGS.

Academically, City and JAGS are identical (with JAGS outperforming on some subjects, City on others, similar numbers to Oxbridge, etc). If anything JAGS probably has better teaching/gets more out of its girls as it gets these results with slightly less selective intake (~480 applied to JAGS, 800 to City and no "puzzles/maths" interview at JAGS).

Values/culture similar - both very multicultural and, I assume, socially diverse. I don't know about City but JAGS has 20% of kids on bursaries (which are on average 89% of fees). If anything, JAGS is probably more diverse because it doesn't have concentration of specific ethnic groups (like Jewish/Indian at City, Habs, NLCS).

JAGS has better facilities and fantastic language provision (comparable only to SPGS) with Italian, Japanese and Russian offered. I think SPGS also offers Mandarin but otherwise the language provision is unrivaled.

Yes, JAGS is not a destination school but I would hardly see City as such. City draws from a wider catchment, true, but only due to its geographical position rather than "destination" status. Neither JAGS can be considered a "good local independent" similar to SHHS. In our neck of the woods, good local independents would be the high schools - WHS, PHS, Sutton, Surbiton, Sydenham, Streatham and Clapham, etc depending on where you are.


I think among girls' schools in London, only SPGS can boast being a destination school. I think the probability of people choosing SPGS over any other school in London (incl. City and NLCS) is 95% or so.

For boys, there are more "destination" schools, i.e. SPS, Westminster, KCS.

We are actually agonizing over JAGS vs Alleyn's and are leaning towards the latter due to co-ed aspect, but I know that if I were choosing between CLSG and JAGS it would be a much easier choice, especially if commute were a consideration.

[VQSV]

Some interesting responses on this thread....which also reveal a little about the "cultural" nuances of difference between the schools (or at least their parents)

Academically: CLSG clearly a (small) notch higher than Alleyn's on virtually any measure you want to consider...but both high achieving schools.
(The only posters seriously disputing this are presumably Alleyn's parents)

I think more important than the slight academic edge is the feel + values of the school.

CLSG was not originally on our list of prospective schools...(we are more north London...so looking at NLCS / SHHS / HBS etc)...but made a late run on the rails after I went to an open day + liked "buzz" of the place.

CLSG is a "destination" school in the sense that it attracts girls from across London in a way that Alleyns / JAGS / SHHS etc don't.
The latter group are excellent schools with a tighter catchment area...but also victim to a lack of cross-London perspective as indicated by some of the comments above.
(i.e. in denial about its real academic standing in an ultra-competitive London market for schools...and prone to a slightly prickly defensive attitude as a result)

I have never heard any CLSG parent boast about its results or even get overly defensive about standing up for the school if someone has a bit of dig about it (too urban / lack of space etc).

The results of the school speak for themselves....and there is a real sense that the girls just roll up their sleeves + get on with things...with impressive results.

As we looked at the school...we liked it more and more...and liked the friendly but no-nonsense atmosphere.

We were potentially faced with a very similar choice between scholarship offer from SHHS (our local "good" independent school which is academically similar to Alleyns in outcomes) and CLSG..with longer commute.
We were definitely edging towards CLSG had not our first choice option come through.

[whatwouldyouchoose]

Thank you all for taking the trouble to respond you have given me much food for thought. DD is not particularly sporty, she would not miss outdoor space to play football for example. She likes swimming and netball which CLSG provides. She enjoys music, plays 2 instruments and both schools would cater for that. No one in the family feels strongly about co-ed versus single sex so that doesn't help either. The academic scholarship at Alleyn's money wise is not significant. I see the disadvantage of commuting, but then again young people are more resilient and I try to see her in 2-3 years time as an adolescent rather than an 11 year old child. It is a very difficult, almost impossible decision, both schools are fantastic, so in order to get out of this impossible situation, I will take into account what my DD wants (city) and the fact that perhaps the type of girl at city is closer to my DD. I'll be visiting both schools this week and I'm hopeful that things will become clearer.