Teachers Strike Using children as a weapon

[Ruimon]

Teachers should not use children as a weapon for their politically motivated demands. Who pays teachers wages? Why have they got so much time to organize strikes? We have all had to forgo pay rises and reduced pensions due to the last government and the banking scandal, why should teachers be any different.

[Ruimon]

performance related pay, err we have nothing to fear have we????

[thecatfromjapan]

The thing I wish we'd kept from the 70s was the closing of the gap of inequality between the highest and lowest earners in the country.

Lots I don;t miss.

But I do miss that.

I'm a leftie. I don't recognise your description of leftie aspirations (or lack of), Ruimon. I think it's an (old) stereotype. I'd have thought the Blair years would have killed it stone dead. But no.

Anyway, welcome to mumsnet. Today is (un)officially "Ranty Pants Day", so you have picked a marvellous day to pitch in.

[thecatfromjapan]

Only someone without children could not understand what is so bizarre about the notion of "performance related pay" when it comes to teaching.

Seriously. You don't even have to be a teacher to realise it is a wholly bizarre notion.

[Arisbottle]

I am a teacher which four children of my own, a stepson and another on the way.

I don't think PRP is bizarre, difficult yes but not bizarre.

[Ruimon]

All we have to do, is look at the educational systems on the globe that work and copy, there still exists in this country left orthodoxy that needs weeding out and exposed, children have been let down for far too long by poor systems it's time for a total revamp.

[chosenone]

Why were you worried about PRP???.... kids themselves will take over the baton anyway Ruimon (Secondary) have their GCSE specs messed around with, EMA being taken away, parents not being able to take them on term time holidays etc THEY are actually getting angry, writingletters to Govt. Maybe Gove will show how much he cares then. Left wing oiks raging against the machine and not staying in their place !

[whendidyoulast]

The main reason why it is bizarre Arisbottle is because of the complexity of human beings and the ways in which they learn/perform in exams.

Maybe you can judge somebody's ability to churn out cars on a production line or on how much double glazing they sell but what if a student who should get A grades becomes terminally ill or has to miss school to look after a disabled parent or just refuses or is unable to do any work at home? What if they panic and misinterpret the question.

There is a huge link between academic performance and wealth and academic performance and parental education. These are better indicators than the school a student attends but are far beyond a teacher's control.

You also cannot compare schools with schools easily. It's like comparing the death rates in a hospital that specialises in cardiac surgery and one that specialises in allergies. It's not the cardiac surgeon's fault that more of his patients will die in a year than an allergy specialist.

But if you start judging people in compex jobs as if they were selling double glazing they won't want to work with risk any more.

Poor old cardiac patients. Poor old schools with high levels of deprivation.

[ipadquietly]

But this is performance related pay based on criteria for pay progression decided by the headteacher (and governors)!

Each school is to set its own pay scales -
make the targets impossible to achieve; reduce your salary budget.

Simples.

[whendidyoulast]

'All we have to do, is look at the educational systems on the globe that work and copy'

You just end up revealing your ignorance Ruimon. Schools don't work in isolation from the rest of society.

[thecatfromjapan]

Fair enough, Arisbottle.

My feeling is that the natural non-linearity in child development is going to make it stressy for teachers and profoundly susceptible to subjective judgment - and even caprice and prejudice.

Ruimon, my feeling about copying "the best" education systems around the world is that there is less agreement as to what constitutes "the best" than you might think (a problem also with PRP, I worry). Also, education is inevitably part of a holistic system. For example: states may have education systems embedded within cultures that function to produce strong academic results (for some). The same educational set-up moved into a different state, with a different culture, might produce quite different results.

[ipadquietly]

ruimon Can you explain the left wing orthodoxy that is prevailing in schools? I really don't see schools as political institutions at all. teachers leave their politics at the breakfast table in the morning.

[cory]

One likely result of PPR is that headteachers and teachers will be less happy about teaching children like my dd: interested and hardworking but with a chronic health condition likely to affect both her attendance and performance. Even when schools aren't allowed to select pupils there are plenty of ways in which you can make a pupil and her parents feel unwelcome. So yes- people like me have everything to fear.

[whendidyoulast]

''All we have to do, is look at the educational systems on the globe that work and copy''

Actually, highest on the table is Finland which is one of the leftiest countries there is.

' The Nordic strategy for achieving equality and excellence in education has been based on constructing a publicly funded comprehensive school system without selecting, tracking, or streaming students during their common basic education.[1] Part of the strategy has been to spread the school network so that pupils have a school near their homes whenever possible or, if this is not feasible, e.g. in rural areas, to provide free transportation to more widely dispersed schools. Inclusive special education within the classroom and instructional efforts to minimize low achievement are also typical of Nordic educational systems'

[thecatfromjapan]

I'm only bothering to post on this thread because it's cold and wet and I'm putting off walking down the road to buy some biscuits.

In my heart of hearts I know that this is just a "Today I put on my Angry Pants" thread.

Hope everyone's day gets better, and ends with feelings of love and contentment for all of you (for all of us).

[BoffinMum]

Ruimon, I would be more than happy to consider an application for you as a PhD student where you can develop this thesis of yours using all the available evidence. Perhaps you can publish a book on the back end of it, and a few journal articles. Work with think tanks and education philanthropists to change the world. Show the rest of the education sector where they are going wrong. That kind of thing.

Or you can spend your life reading the Daily Mail and believing every bit of unsubstantiated crap ministers want you to believe.

Guess which route to wisdom I chose??

[whendidyoulast]

'Teachers, who are fully unionized, follow state curriculum guidelines but are accorded a great deal of autonomy as to methods of instruction and are even allowed to choose their own textbooks'

So, what do you think Ruimon, shall we copy the Finnish system?

I'm in favour.

[whendidyoulast]

And this:

'during the first years of comprehensive school, grading may be limited to verbal assessments rather than formal grades. The start of numerical grading is decided locally. Most commonly, pupils are issued a report card twice a year: at the ends of the autumn and spring terms. There are no high-stakes tests.'

Shall I repeat. Finland is TOP of the league tables.

[ipadquietly]

It would be a little difficult to emulate Finland's education system seeing that its total population is half that of London; and about 2/3 of the country is populated by reindeer and bears.

[thecatfromjapan]

whendidyoulast

I want to run away to a Nordic country ...

Seriously, though, while there is much I think sounds lovely in the Finnish system, it has to be said that I would worry about adopting even that - or expecting to produce the same results in this country.

Finland is small, it shares its money around its population more - through common goods, and it is very homogenous, compared to Britain.

I know i sound like an idiot, but I think Britain's schools deal with a lot of challenges, pretty well on balance. The obvious example is the shifting population of London, where children with little or no English are accommodated and taught. That's just one example - but it points to what schools in Britain are trying to do, and trying to do quite well.

[BoffinMum]

We'd have a few problems copying Finland because they spend vast amounts of time cross country skiing and scoffing free lunches of things like salmon and home made meatballs.

[whendidyoulast]

Best of all:

'The respect accorded to the profession and the higher salaries than the OECD average lead to higher performing and larger numbers applying for the positions, and this is reflected in the quality of teachers in Finland.'

[maillotjaune]

I'm not a teacher but support them striking. I trust the teaching profession as a whole much more than a politician who happens to have the job of education secretary at the moment. Despite being a leftie that applies to Labour governments too but I am more suspicious of cabinets full of millionaires who have no experience of state schools.

Btw I work in professional training and although we have an element of performance related pay, NONE of it is related to student performance in exams because there are too many factors outside the lecturer's control. Feedback from students affects us, but you can hardly ask a class of 7 year olds whether they felt adequately prepared for KS1 SATs...

[BoffinMum]

I think PRP should only relate to factors under a teacher's direct control - attendance, self-directed CPD, volunteering for extra duties, taking on extra responsibility, etc.

[whendidyoulast]

I know, thecat. But Ruinon said ''All we have to do, is look at the educational systems on the globe that work and copy''

Finland is at the top of the numeracy and literacy tables yet has a system which uses all of the strategies that Ruinon is criticizing.

It just shows how little he/she understand and that actually her or his arguments are entirely ideologically based and don't refer to any evidence at all.