New report suggests adjusting August born's test results.

[Suzieismyname]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-22469216
This will be ignored by Gove, won't it?

[Chandon]

Those of you who say " the damage has been done" and " they believe they are stupid" and such things, are you against streaming then?

I only moved my kids across from the local state school to a private school a year ago, and one of the things I noted ( and liked) was that they do not stream for English. They think there is a basic level all the kids should be taught at ( which must be challenging as DS has SEN, along with about 5 others , and the class also has a few very gifted kids).

Anyway, I am not sure a lot of damage is done by streaming, but if so many of us think it may be a bad thing for the bottom sets, why do schools persist with it? Schools appear to not be that comfortable with streAming, really, as they try to confuse the kids and parents by calling it " butterflies", "pears" or "the red group", but kids ALWAYS figure out what the top and bottom sets are.

Is the problem with "sets" rather than callender age?

[IamMrsElf]

The problem is with calender age - fact.

To add a little anecdotal evidence - when teaching any bottom set group there is always a disproportionate amount of Summer borns - IME.

My DB was a summer born and when he started school he found it hard to cope and spent most of his time playing in the sand pit. He felt like a total failure the entire time he was at school, because he was alienated so early on. He is now very successful, with a well paying job and all the trimmings. Being a summer born will not stop you from getting on after school, but something needs to be done to help integrate children into education.

My DS is 3 in July, he is clearly bright but with bags of energy. I am worried that when he starts school he will struggle with having to sit still and focus on one task. He is loud and bold. I worry that he will be branded a problem child and will end up disillusioned like my brother and father - both summer born males that struggled with school but are very successful now.

Setting is not an exact science, it takes time to adjust it, to get it right - every child is an individual and will progress at different rates, monitoring progress is vital to ensure a child is correctly set and supported.

Children will always look to see who is in the top set and who is in the bottom - that's a natural thing to do - we need to make sure they know why and they feel supported.

[Suzieismyname]

I'm trying to digest the actual report...

It's for England rather than Scotland.

It does say that August borns are less likely to go to university, but if they do manage to get there then they are more likely to finish and get a 1st/2:1 than September borns! (More motivated it suggests.)

It mentions giving parents more flexibility to defer a year but says it wouldn't be a good solution. .. I can't find the reason why though. ..

[TonysHardWorkDay]

God I was pished last night! First night drinking in a while and I ended up necking a whole bottle, could vaguely remember being on my laptop and had to tentatively check my history, thank god I stayed off facebook .

I get very emotive around this subject as I am very typical of a summer born and still carry the baggage and lack of confidence today. I'd like to see a proper debate as to how we can improve education for all children as the one size fits all approach lets many down for a wide variety of reasons. Rather than the 'but I was fine' that it invariably comes down to.

[Suzieismyname]

Wouldn't like to get into a debate with you when you're sober then Tony!!

[Taffeta]

I find threads like this really hard to read, esp when teachers come on and talk about summer borns being labelled early on as less able and this becoming a self fulfilling prophecy.

This is happening to my DD ATM. (6, Aug born Y2). She is doing OK for reading but her Maths and writing need more work. Her self esteem is low; she is on a table in class with 7 children (most Autumn borns 10 or 11 months older ) and says she isn't clever compared to them. She, along with 6 others in her class, were asked to sit in another class this week for an afternoon as "we aren't clever enough to take a Maths test the others are doing" ( I assume this is a L3 SATS paper).

There has never been any mention by any of her teachers or in reports etc about her age. I am sure it affects her, sure, Maths may not be her thing,but I have noticed with her ( and never noticed with her Oct born 9 yo brother ) that she gets things when she gets them, not when I or the school expect her to. It wouldn't surprise me to find out that her brain just isn't developed enough or hasn't yet built the connections or whatever to understand information before she is ready, if that makes sense.

[TonysHardWorkDay]

I'm as quiet as a mouse when sober suzie!

It makes sense Taffeta just try and support her as much as you can. That she is getting the impression that she isn't clever enough at age 6 is awful and I know how that feels, maybe try involving her in maths at home but so it doesn't feel like work IYSWIM? There are lots of ideas for games that can build confidence with numbers. I'd definitely speak to the school about the children being made to feel less able and point out how damaging this can be.

[DewDr0p]

Well said Tony

I'm a primary school governor and I can tell you there is always a small group of summer born children whose progress we keep a watchful eye on. Always. It's not about writing them off though, it's about giving them the support they need to close that gap.

[3littlefrogs]

Adjusting the exam scores seems ridiculously complicated IMO.

What would really help would be the option to keep a "young" summer born child back a year. We already start children in formal schooling far too young in this country. The state system has this stupid "one size fits all" attitude. There should be more flexibility to enable parents to make the best decision for their child.

I am an August baby, but I was born 10 weeks premature. I really feel that I would have benefited from starting school a year later. It has affected me my whole life.

Ds2 is a July baby. He is very clever, but I also feel he would have been better at nursery for an extra year, just for the chance to mature a little. Maybe this is more of an issue for boys? I don't know.

[gabsid]

In any case, there is enough research to suggest that an early school starting age is not going to make DC learn more. Some are really put off by this and loose self-confidence and it doesn't alway have to be just the summer borns. Some are just not ready to learn to read or to fit into a fairly structured environment at age 4 and they should be picked out and allowed to learn in their own way for a bit longer - or, alternatively let them all stary YR a year later.

Most other countries start later, why can't this government listen to reseach and professionals. What would be lost if they started YR aged 5-6 and did their GCSEs at 17. And there would probably still be a few who wouldn't be ready.

[edam]

Love your drunken post, Tony. It's often very frustrating trying to discuss data or studies, because there seems to be some natural human response where people get all anecdotal. Which is fair enough if they realise it's anecdotal and not actually contradicting proper research. It's when they try to disprove the research by saying 'my sample of one is different, ner ner ner ner ner, those researchers are spouting rubbish'.

You can criticise research by pointing out flaws in the methodology or assumptions, clearly, just not by saying 'well, my personal experience is different and that trumps all data ever'.

[ProbablyJustGas]

"I struggle to understand why Britain continues with such a young school-starting age when the evidence (maybe particularly for boys) suggests that kids do better if allowed a later start to formal learning. Threads about 'teaching my 2 year old to read with flashcards' just make me despair tbh."

Yes, this, exactly!

I can say that my winter-born DSD in Scotland also struggles with school. She started P1 when she was 4.5 and it was way too young. She is making progress, but she is consistently behind - not only behind her peers, who are all older than her (she's the youngest in her year), but also about six months behind her so-called "reading age", according to various "learn to read" publishers. It is not just reading and spelling she struggles with either - she still does not have basic sums in her head - she is nearly done with P3, and still doesn't know 8+7 off the top of her head.

During P1, she may as well have not been there. None of the material she went over during the entire year stuck. It finally began to stick about halfway through P2, just before she turned 6. I believe that is when a lot of children are more developmentally ready for a formal school environment. You can close the gap between summer/winter borns and the older kids, but the most practical answer is not by fudging the exam scores - it's by putting children into school when most of them are more developmentally ready to handle it.

In my DSD's case, yes, my DH and his exW could have deferred her. But the staff at DSD's nursery said she was ready for school. And so, they trusted the nursery. By the time they figured out that DSD being able to read/write her first name, but not her last name, might not cut it for P1, it was too late - she was enrolled.

[newgirl]

I think schools help the younger ones now (well ours does). I think that's where the help needs to be. I think by juniors the age difference starts to even out.

[BooCanary]

My DD is end August born. One of the issues I believe is key, is that often when there are split classes/year groups, the youngest go into a class with the year below and the oldest with the year above. I think this has a significant effect on their learning.

This happened with my DD, and consequently she spent 2 years in a split nursery/reception class, her Y1 in a Y1/reception class. Now she is in a full Y2 class, it is clear that the children that spent a year in nursery/reception, a year in a mostly Y1/some reception children class, and a year in a mostly Y2/some Y1 children class are WAY more advanced (DC start in Nursery where we live).

Whether it is intended or not, DCs in classes where they are part of the younger cohort of years do better than vice versa. More is expected of a Y1 child in a Y1/Y2 class than a Y1 child in a YR/Y1 class.

[Lilymaid]

Sorry ladies but I'm of the opinion that sometimes a child simply isn't as bright or mature as the other kids and that being the youngest is just a coincidence.

Piffle

[wheresthebeach]

Setting is a minefield. My dd complained that she wasn't being challenged in maths. Her teacher told us (and her) that someone would have to move down if she moved up. She was told to 'fight' for her spot. Two weeks later dd moved up a table and a child was moved down.
So it's not about 'are you able to do the work' its about table space???

[EagleRiderDirk]

wheresthebeach I got that in maths and science, they didn't have the space. I got moved up in science but not maths. Did a catch up course between GCSE and a level. Completed a 5 day course in a day. I found it easy. Head of maths went nuts about why I was kept down over other less able top set kids. My teacher didn't like me because I didn't seem to pay attention but when she challenged me I'd done the work and just wasn't challenged at all. I wasn't the only one they discovered.

[EagleRiderDirk]

though i think head of maths was more upset as it affected his marks - I couldn't get an a on my paper, probably would have aced the higher one and they'd have better stats

[3littlefrogs]

Intelligence, emotional maturity and readyness to learn/cope with formal teaching are all very different things.

Ds2, the youngest in his year, all As and A*s at GCSE, 4 As at AS level, 3 As at A level and in his final year at university, would STILL have benefited from starting school a year later. IMO.

[Taffeta]

Lilymaid - surely maturity and age have a huge correlation?

[Taffeta]

Sorry that comment is for MTS not Lilymaid

[Taffeta]

And FWIW I would say its just luck that you have mature summer borns.