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If you can afford private education but remain in the state sector cont.

999 replies

happygardening · 06/01/2013 13:22

Thought I repost the OP although the debate has moved on a little Smile .
It's going to be hard to avoid this becoming another state v private thread, but what I'm interested in is a slightly different take on that debate. It's not "which is better?" but "if you think state school is better even though you could afford private education, then why is that?"

The question is based on the assumptions that the DC in question is/are reasonably bright (so might benefit academically from academically selective education), that the state school is non-selective (as most people don't have access to grammar schools), and that you hope for your DC to go to a good university (to make the £££££ fees worthwhile!)

I've been mulling this over ever since I heard some maths professor from Cambridge talking on the radio about the age-old private v state inequality of Oxbridge admissions. He was all for improving access for state school applicants but said that the simple fact was that for maths, even the best state schools generally teach only to the A-level syllabus, whereas the best private schools take their maths/further maths A-level candidates well beyond the syllabus and so the state school applicants are at a huge disadvantage - they simply don't have the starting level of knowledge required for the course.

This made me wonder: with this sort of unequal playing field, if you have the choice of private education, what reasons might you have not to take it?

Would be interested to hear from those who've made this choice - how it's working out, or if your DC have finished school now, how did it work out? Did they go to good universities/get good jobs, etc? On the other side of things, if you paid for private schooling but now regret it, why?

My DC go to a state school by the way.

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rabbitstew · 07/01/2013 09:27

I agree about the culture of top public schools. You are just not going to get so many young people applying from one school unless there is a massive culture of doing so. Compare that to the grammar school I went to, where all but the virtual dead certs were discouraged from going for it (resulting in virtually everyone who applied to Oxford or Cambridge from the school getting in, but with one or two disgruntled students who felt they had been put off from following their aims and desires rather than supported in following them). I still wouldn't want to pay colossal sums of money for my children to be in an environment where getting into Oxford or Cambridge is considered the norm. That's just too far removed from what I consider to be normal life - like living part of the time in a gilded cage and the other part of the time going out to examine the interesting specimins outside the cage who aren't quite like you, so that you can understand them.

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happygardening · 07/01/2013 09:34

"I still wouldn't want to pay colossal sums of money for my children to be in an environment where getting into Oxford or Cambridge is considered the norm. That's just too far removed from what I consider to be normal life - like living part of the time in a gilded cage and the other part of the time going out to examine the interesting specimins outside the cage who aren't quite like you, so that you can understand them."
Rabbit Assuming you have the money then thats your choice these schools are grossly over subscribed so obviously many feel differently. Hopefully you unlike many on here who are also able to make the same choice don't endlessly moan about how unfair it all is!

OP posts:
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rabbitstew · 07/01/2013 09:50

I don't think it's unfair that I choose not to go down that route Grin, although I take an interest in my emotional reaction to things when I step outside myself, iyswim - I think my emotional response definitely relates to my upbringing and what I was taught to view as important in life. I do think, however, that the whole system in which we all have to operate is intrinsically unfair and am glad that I have actually had choices to make - you can hardly say something is unfair when it is your choice, but you can say it is unfair when it isn't your choice...

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Bonsoir · 07/01/2013 09:53

Life is intrinsically unfair.

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rabbitstew · 07/01/2013 09:58

In fact, I know my position is utterly illogical, so it can only be emotional - I would not discount paying for my children to be educated privately altogether, after all... I just have a problem with going for what is viewed as "the best." So go figure that one...

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rabbitstew · 07/01/2013 10:03

Maybe I have an obsesssion with the "good enough"???

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seeker · 07/01/2013 10:03

"Rabbit Assuming you have the money then thats your choice these schools are grossly over subscribed so obviously many feel differently. Hopefully you unlike many on here who are also able to make the same choice don't endlessly moan about how unfair it all is!"

Now this really sums up an important part of the issue for me. The assumption that people are only concerned about their own situation, and that it is somehow wrong to be outraged by unfairness on behalf of other people. My children are very privileged in many ways- why can't I be active and vocal on behalf of those that aren't?

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seeker · 07/01/2013 10:06

No, I don't mean "wrong to be outrged on behalf of other people. It's as if it's impossible. That if you are upset about unfairness it must be because you are jealous, or bitter because of something that happened tonyou or your children. Not just that you hate injustice happening to anyone.

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Bonsoir · 07/01/2013 10:08

seeker - "My children are very privileged in many ways- why can't I be active and vocal on behalf of those that aren't?"

Because it is arrogant to assume that, as a parent of a priviliged child, you know better than the parents of a less privileged child what is good for him or her.

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rabbitstew · 07/01/2013 10:22

Life is intrinsically unfair. However, it is not wrong to want to reduce unfairness rather than allow it to blossom.

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seeker · 07/01/2013 10:22

Bonsoir- you don't seem to have a problem with, as the parent of privileged children, knowing that less privileged children are fine with what they've got! Why is it arrogant to want them to have more, but not arrogant to say that the status quo is fine?

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Bonsoir · 07/01/2013 10:31

I think that denying choice to all in the name of fairness is a champagne-socialist delusion that has no future. Choice and diversity does not guarantee opportunity to all (the trouble with opportunity is the familiar horse-water one as much as anything else) but it does create something to aspire to. And removing aspiration is the unfairest (and stupidest) thing you can do to human beings.

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Bonsoir · 07/01/2013 10:32

Rabbitstew - some sorts of unfairness can be reduced or even eliminated. But not all and it is far from desirable to attempt to do so.

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rabbitstew · 07/01/2013 10:33

We're all a bit trapped by our upbringings, though. If you had a fabulous public school education and happy home life and looked back on your childhood and thought how marvellous it was and how wonderful your parents were for giving you those opportunities and experiences, it might be very hard not to strive to recreate this for your own children. If this meant choosing a career more for the money you could earn than your personal fulfilment so as to ensure the same education for your children, would this be carrying on a fine family tradition, or cutting off the choices your parents wanted to open up to you and/or wasting the opportunities you were given???? What and who do we really do it all for? We are all tangled up in a mix of emotions and beliefs, really.

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grovel · 07/01/2013 10:44

Very true, rabbit.

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MrsSalvoMontalbano · 07/01/2013 11:20

rabbbitstew - well put - it is not a simple equation.

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Bonsoir · 07/01/2013 11:55

... and which is also why it is not appropriate to fight on other people's behalf when you don't know what they want and have no right to decide for them.

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rabbitstew · 07/01/2013 12:31

Hmm. If enough people you are fighting for agree with you, it is generally considered appropriate to fight on others' behalf....

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rabbitstew · 07/01/2013 12:32

And if not enough people agree with you, then you are unlikely to get very far, anyway, so that's alright then, isn't it?...

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seeker · 07/01/2013 12:34

"I think that denying choice to all in the name of fairness is a champagne-socialist delusion that has no future. Choice and diversity does not guarantee opportunity to all (the trouble with opportunity is the familiar horse-water one as much as anything else) but it does create something to aspire to. And removing aspiration is the unfairest (and stupidest) thing you can do to human beings."

  1. Nobody is suggesting denying choice to anyone.
  2. Nobody is talking about removing aspiration.


What is being suggested is that opportunities be extended beyond those born to them.

Your "if you give poor people baths they'll only keep coal in them" attitude is, frankly, repugnant.
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JoanByers · 07/01/2013 12:53

That's just too far removed from what I consider to be normal life - like living part of the time in a gilded cage and the other part of the time going out to examine the interesting specimins outside the cage who aren't quite like you, so that you can understand them.

Well my experience is that I went to state school and did very well educationally, financially, and I end up in the gilded cage anyway.

In other words, while you might not meet that many private school types in Asda on a Friday night, if you end up in a well-paid career then your colleagues and friends will be privately educated in many cases anyway, so it is the norm there.

Of course if you genuinely do not aspire for your child to go to Oxbridge, to become a lawyer or a doctor, or whatever, but would rather they became a plumber or a shop assistant, then it makes sense.

But otherwise as has been extensively noted on this thread around half of your peers at Oxbridge will be privately educated so it's quite normal there.

It's not just career of course, but your hobbies, social activities, how you spend your weekends, taking part in some activities; depending on your choices for you and your family you will find that privately educated peers are the norm.

For that reason the same principle applies in reverse - how can you understand the interesting specimens inside the cage when you went to a bog-standard comprehensive? I personally haven't fully got a handle on them.

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MordionAgenos · 07/01/2013 13:07

There appear to be multiple discussions going on in this thread. I certainly don't have a problem at all with Seeker's thesis that opportunities should be extended beyond those born to them (well, I wouldn't really, would I, in the circumstances! Grin ) For me though, the key issue isn't that oxford and cambridge should change what they are. They should continue to be elite (on the basis of ability) and where tradition works for them then I don't see why they should dump it (although I was careful to apply to the university that was more relaxed about gowns in general and a college that was super relaxed about all that guff, in particular). What absolutely HAS to change is that at present, all the kids who might want to go there, maybe, and who could go there, based on ability, aren't even applying. And that has to change. And, again using myself as an example, continuously focussing on the negative 'you'll never get in, you're too working class, too council flat, too minority heritage, you didn't go to one of a handful of state schools so you will NEVER get in so don't bother' isn't going to help with that. We should always try to be as encouraging as possible, and pointing out all the people like me who did manage it, and who are in no way super duper or magical. That is they way to practically demonstrate to kids that it isn't a pipe dream, it's a genuine thing to go for.

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JoanByers · 07/01/2013 13:13

That seems like an ambition too far to me Mordion. The British education system has been thoroughly dumbed down, and I don't know how you can expect all of these 'bog-standard comprehensives' to transcend that and motivate children to want to go to Oxbridge. The goal, quite clearly, has been anti-elitism - in other words we are not particularly interested, as a nation, in producing dynamic, innovative proplr, but rather in producing a nation of university-educated shopkeepers.

Given the increase from 10% or so to 50% or whatever it is now going to university clearly there will be much less focus on the demands of Oxbridge, not more.

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LaVolcan · 07/01/2013 13:53

continuously focussing on the negative 'you'll never get in, you're too working class, too council flat, too minority heritage, you didn't go to one of a handful of state schools so you will NEVER get in so don't bother'

Mordion: I have to agree with you here - this attitude was present in my mediocre girls grammar school a generation ago and while I won't say it hasn't changed since, I think it's still more prevalent than it should be.

JoanByers: I don't think it's a question of education being dumbed down - I think it was inherent from the start - the upper classes sent their sons (not daughters) to Eton etc. while the working classes, the majority, had sufficient elementary education as to make them employable.

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MordionAgenos · 07/01/2013 14:05

LaVolcan It was an attitude I never encountered from anyone, from primary school onwards (and to be fair from my parents too) people couldn't have been more encouraging. I was lucky in that respect (although one primary school teacher did tell me that since the 11+ had been abolished in our borough the year before I had no chance of going to the former grammar cos of where I lived. She was wrong. But to be fair in that conversation she opened with 'you'd have walked the 11+. BUT.....' Grin She was actually lovely, she was bemoaning the impact she assumed the abolition of the 11+ would have on those of us at the primary from the wrong side of the tracks (ie the council estate). Most of us were accepted by the former grammar though, so she needn't have worried. AND we got the bus money back off the council too, which was good and wouldn't happen today).

Having not encountered that negative attitude about Cambridge when I was young, imagine how sad it makes me to see it all around me where I live now (where practically everyone I see displaying it is actually rather posher and richer than my family were when I was a kid). And to see it in threads like these. I find it really depressing.

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