No Shit Sherlock : Supportive parents do more than good schools to boost children's exam results

[TalkinPeace2]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-19923891

You don't say ....

Obviously you don't, you don't think it's a problem,

Utter bollocks. Don't put words into my mouth. Do I think the problem would be solved by stopping schools from asking parents to practise times tables with their kids? No. Do I think that clearing the primary curriculum for a group daily chanting of their 12x12s is a good idea for all? No.

Do I think that the kids of parents who don't give a shit should be given more support at school to overcome the disadvantages of their background without having curriculum time taken away from other stuff that will disadvantage them in other ways? Yes.

Going back to the reason I gave the thread the title I did,

Parents who are in a position to care will always give their children the advantages that they can.
Non selective, state funded schools are geared up to spot the other ones and try to give them that same support through the pastoral systems.
It will never be as good, but will hopefully help to break the cycle and give all children equality of opportunity.

Noble: from the off you were rude and sneering - not me. I mentioned that phrase twice, because it was rude and sneering right from the off. And if you have no opinion about primary homework - if you've really got so little clue about it - why the fuck would you even think that. Was it just to be rude? You make absolutely no sense at all.

You know how important times tables are - I would say a secondary maths teacher who neither knows or has an opinion about maths teaching in primary, when they're getting kids who don't know their times tables, really doesn't give a rat's arse. Because her kids are alright.

Thank you for the thread talkinpeace. We still probably disagree on the essence of things.

Orangeberries, once again I found your post interesting and enlightening, I had never heard that before.

Brycie, will you please stop talking bollocks about what I've apparently said or not said.

You've said that I don't give a shit about kids not knowing tables. Untrue

You've said that I've no opinion about primary homework. Untrue

You've said that I have no opinion about maths teaching in primary. Untrue.

You've said that I know nothing about maths teaching in primary. Untrue.

The only thing I said I don't know is how much time a primary school teacher would recommend a 'mum' (not parent/carer hmm?) spend doing times tables after school. And I've said that my answer would be that it would vary, because kids vary.

You've said that I don't give a rat's arse about kids who don't know their times tables by secondary. Again untrue. FFS, I teach these kids, of course I care. Suggesting that I don't care because 'my kids are all right' is grossly offensive. I actually spend time, effort and resources on these kids trying to help them catch up. What do you do? Is it simply to send your kids private then pontificate on a web forum?

Seriously, can you actually read and comprehend what I'm writing before you spout complete bullshit?

You make absolutely no sense at all.

That's funny, because quite a few people on this thread have posted in agreement with me.

Aboslutely bloody ridiculous. You said I was unfair for asking you for an opinion on primary maths homework because you were a secondary teachers. Poor you. Utter rubbish.

You make no sense because you make no sense, however many people agree with you. Quite a few agreed with me too, probably more. Do you want to count? Does someone win? How childish. It was a conversation not a competition. Is this place really so important that you need to get some kind of prize for the most posters who think you're right?

Would you two PLEASE SHUT UP
You disagree.
No shit sherlock.

Now either make constructive comments or go back to lurking.

definitely time to move away from the screen. Nothing to see here.

Goodnight.

Talkinpeace, it's one thing to disagree, it's another thing to have someone make claims about you which are a load of crap and I reserve the right to correct them however much it might piss you off.

Oh read your own posts back and you'll see what I mean. Who cares? I was here to vent a bit, and discuss, and get opinions, gawd knows what you're here for. To randomly insult people?

Goodnight.

I went to a village school where for much of the time we were allowed to get away with much less than we could have been doing. However, it had an excellent 11-plus pass rate (about 80%), and that was because for about a year before the exam the head singlemindedly had us practising past papers at school to the exclusion of almost all else, as I remember.

And it was all in school time. The idea that our parents could or should have us tutored for it entered no one's heads. It would have been considered madness. This was a village school, a fairly long way from anywhere. There were probably no books you could buy, either. Neither the head nor anyone else doubted for a minute that our extensive 11-plus practice should be school-led.

There were no SATs or much compulsory curriculum stuff then, though, so I did have a couple of gaps in my knowledge when I reached grammar school. Still, I don't think the 20% who didn't pass the 11-plus suffered too much from spending lots of time on reasoning tests.

Thourght i try steer away from bickering and get to the point.

How do we judge our childs education as good?
I dont really think all parents just value academic exam results alone?

One of my frustrations in my dd primary school is hen looking round and in prospectus they give the impression they do loads.

but in reality

so afterschool clubs
no lunchtime clubs
no music instruments until year 5!
1school trip a year.
no comeptative sports against other local schools.

they did wake and shake sessions once last year.

As mum of 3 I like them to have activities but it can work out costly and time consuming as have to pick up school then take a seperate place.

I have compalined but they so fixated with downgraded ofsted with focussed on drop on attainment that /teaching that I doubt they will be too het up over my complaint but many parents share same veiw.

Here we non grammer area the 4top performing state schools

2select by faith and catchment

other 2 recently converted public to state academys select

10%musical ability
10%languages

so unless someones hoping to get child into one of independants in city to which are are lots and have to sit 11+then tutorings not the norm.

Parents here are midnful of sats but dont think they fixated with them not in same way schools are.

i think solutions are

more extra curricular/enrichment
more trips
homework club maybe.

maybe open /honest dialougue with parents not in stern way but

so that parent could be open and honest about home commitments.

A lot of parents do care they just work long hours, if balancing more than 1 child so its really hard to be judgemental maybe if we could be more honest then their could be more focussed help in class.

Rather than set homework in hols

suggestions sheets-things could do with kids that fun or have time.

maybe more meet and greets in less formal environment than parents evening where kids can play, do crafts and meet the teacher.

or school seem to keep parents at arms length it bugs me i want to be more a partner.

Dd in class of many only children and often feel guilty i cant give her more time.

There will always be hardcore that dont care -but like to think they minority.

I think in deprived areas its about educating the parents as well as the children -i guess thats what surestart was suppost to do but that only goes up to age 5.

Thanks for the insights. Noble I'm sorry we fell out. I suppose I must have been very annoying. I mean, I still think I'm right but it takes two people to have an argument and I was one of them. A lot of the things you said earlier were interesting even though we disagreed.

Deleted!

Should have said YPMYSLARL

I'm so upset I don't know what that means That would have been so clever of you to use a secret code. If only you'd done that then I would have felt so left out from the in crowd or whoever does know what it means.

I reported you and then tried to withdraw the report because it was ridiculous to be upset over something so stupid and silly. But never mind.

It's not an incrowd thing you daft bint (you can report that too).

It's what Justine says we should say.

It means: Your Post Makes You Sound Like A Raving Loon

No you go ahead The intitials / Justine thing sounds a bit KS2 to me! but whatever pulls your rope. Enjoy.

Very interesting thread. Haven't read all of it but mostly agree with brycie.

Can I just interject with my experience which seems to throws a spanner in the works of the received wisdom.....maybe I'm an outlyer.

I had zero support from my parents at primary, father was absent and my mother was extremely busy running a cafe business in hong kong, she was illiterate, could barely write her own name. When I came to England at the age of 9 barely speaking English, I went to a below average primary school but fortunately somehow went onto grammar school without any extra tutoring. At grammar school, the high expectations carried me through to university, which I had never dreamed was within my reach when I was younger....I had no concepts or awareness of middle class then, but I remember the Easter before the A levels, my best friend's parents sent her to an intensive physics and chemistry revision course and I remember thinking there is no way I'd get the same grades as her, we both ended up with the same A level grades.

so yes, I believe that the schools system and education should cover the essential work and should be a means for social mobility with or without parental involvement.

JMHO

Just to add that I am now (trying to be) one of those involved parents to my 7 yo dd, and wish that the school would send well thought out, well worded homework home which she could get on and do herself and ask for specific help if necessary. As it s at he moment, it's mostly 'fun projects' or woollily worded homework which leaves my dd (and myself) thinking....where do you start? Or what exactly is te deliverable from his? Don't like it ....in fact, will email the feedback to the teacher.

Also, I read with interest other men's experiences with the school not teaching times tables, if the are not going to teach it I wish they would just say and tell me so I know to plug the gap. Also agree about the lack of transparency someone posted ...about doing stuff at home to plug gaps but never really knowing if they are gaps, tts being a good example.

Mum's experience

Bloody iPad autocorrect.....

My DS's infant school infuriated me as I could never get a straight answer from them. I know they are young, but in Y2 I thought DS needed a bit of support. All I got was: he's fine. Argghhh. It was school policy not to give levels to parents?!

His junior school seems a bit more open and straight forward. They actually seem to welcome parents supporting DC. Thank god for that! I couldn't have taken any more of this secrecy and when DD starts next Sep I will make it clear from the start that I want to know levels and how she does academically - they are my DC?!

Brycie, I completely agree with all you have said. I think the current system works against bright children from shit homes. Instead of a system where the brightest and best in our country can go on to be our politicians, scientists, law makers etcetera, we have a system where the kids of the motivated (ie. rich) parents achieve these positions. What a waste. We are run by a mediocre caste.

A lot of the damage to those from poorer homes is done before they even reach primary school which is why they begin school already about a year behind their more wealthy and advantaged peers and the gap continues to widen. Schools absolutely should do what they can to help them catch up, but there is a limit to what can be done. Making everyone go at a slower pace (ie chanting tt that they already know) doesn't seem the best solution to me. I'd prefer to see more individualised targeted interventions for those who need it.