Will free schools drive up standards? Read Toby Young's guest post and join the conversation

[ElenMumsnetBloggers]

Are free schools ready to fall or fly? Do they really drive up standards or are they a snobbish gimmick? And should more parents be setting up their own schools? Journalist and producer Toby Young explains why he set up the West London Free School and what makes the free school proposition an exciting one. Join the conversation that Toby's begun and have your say on free schools.

[CecilyP]

BoffinMum, while I agree that using Music or Modern Foreign Language aptitude tests helps schools screen for middle class pro-school children, it is something that all secondary schools are allowed to do - and it is only for 10% of the intake.

Given what TY says, it does seem odd that WLFS has chosen to do this. It would be different for a school that already had a great orchestra or established choral tradition.

[CecilyP]

ElaineRees, I am amazed that TY thinks you are an old-fashioned Tory simply for thinking the ambition for all the children at the school to go to top universities is a little unrealistic. I am assuming you might be a teacher though. I doubt if TY has ever taught if he assumes that this could be achieved simply with good teachers, good discipline and high expectations.

He goes on to reference Mossbourne Community Academy in Hackney where indeed all but a handful of last year's sixth form went to university. Note university, not top university. He also failed to mention that entry to Mossbourne's sixth form is selective.

[ElaineReese]

I'm not a teacher, but I've worked in schools and have kids in them, and thank you Cecily : that's pretty much what I wanted to say!

[fivecandles]

Toby, I have noticed that the fiercest advocates of exclusive education (or exclusive anything really) are those who know or assume that their own kids will fall on the right side of the divide. In the extremely unlikely event that your own children don't get a place at this school (you use the word 'if' earlier in the thread) or, worse, that some do and some don't, I wonder:

a) will you still be as positive about the school and free schools in general?
b) what school would be your plan b (a private one?)?

p.s how many music lessons do your own children do?

[fivecandles]

'Wonky, your embarrassing dismissal of 'quoting a dead language' with regard to Latin is a fine example of how access to a glittering treasure trove of knowledge has been denied to those who consider Latin the preserve of anachronisitic pedagogy.'

I personally am not dismissive of teaching Latin but I do question why it is valued over other subjects and even, other languages. The fact is that Latin is a prestige subject associated with a particular social class and it is pure snobbery that means it is perceived as more worthwhile than say, Japanese, when to a group of urban, 21st century kids, it, frankly, isn't.

[ElaineReese]

I think there's a lot to be said for Latin, my daughter does it out of hours and it helps with French and German and English: but I do agree that one of its main values does seem to be snob points.

[lljkk]

y5 DD studies Latin, within a special state school scheme, we are supposed to consider it a great privilege, etc. I am NOT impressed or convinced. It would be SO MUCH better if she could study Spanish as a MFL. I speak a lot of Spanish & have found it enormously useful (lifelong).

The "top universities" thing is amusing me; there's a horsey-boarding private school in Northern England (QEthelburga's) that boasts about a very high % going to "top universities". They conveniently publish numbers that go to which Uni, to verify their assertions.

A minority went to Oxbridge/RG, a fair few went to ex-polys, that's their definition of "top universities". So we shall see what def. WLFS end up using, too.

[moondog]

'Toby, I have noticed that the fiercest advocates of exclusive education (or exclusive anything really) are those who know or assume that their own kids will fall on the right side of the divide. '

I'm not sure I understand this.
There is no such thing as 'exclusive education'.

Cecily
'I doubt if TY has ever taught if he assumes that this could be achieved simply with good teachers, good discipline and high expectations.'

What extra magic ingredient do you think needs to be added to the mix?
An ability to get down with the kids?
A cunning way with chickpeas?
Membership of a teaching union?

I know what the extra magic ingredient is-evidence based educational methods. It worked in the biggest educational experiement of all times, Project Followthrough in which disadvantaged kids from ethnic backgrounds out performed middle class white kids time and time again. I bet you've never heard of it, right? Most peopel haven't. It was all quietly shelved and effectively ignored and dismissed by the people who were (and are) resaponsible for the education and liberation of the disadvantaged.
Project Followthrough

Educational failure is a nice little industry. It creates a plethora of parasites-'advisory teachers', 'outreach', social workers, 'community liaison officers' not to mention the raft of courses, resources and consultants. Heaven forbid we might actually sort this mess out once and for all. Thousands will be forced to find something useful to do.
The Centre for Policy Studies have written a withering report on the SN 'industry'. I agree with all of it, and I am part of that industry. I have it on pdf if anyone wants it.

Fivecandles, the idea that inm our present state system a group of 'urban' teens could learn Japanese to a high enoguh standard for it to be of use, makes me laugh out loud.
My 20 year old nice did a French 'A' level, as did I. Not only can she not actually speak French, she has a shaky grasp of the grammar and has never read a French novel in its entirity. She got a B by the way.

[ElaineReese]

Yes, what QE do is to make all the non-academic kids be in the 'faculty' at VIth form (ie no A levels) while the academic ones are in the 'collegiate' sixth - thus their results don't get messed up. They're notorious for it.

[moondog]

Ah, the myth of success for all.
Better to have everyone together pursuing one thing and being crap at it than allowing peopel to focus on what they are good at.
Fits beautifully into Toynbee-esqe fantasy of everyone excleeing at the same thing.
(Only of course the peopel who beat this drum the loudest have al lthe resources and provisions to side-step the systems and procedures that the proles have to go through-Millar, Toynbee, Benn, Diane Abbott et al. Their kids won't be hanging out with da yoot on street corners.)

[fivecandles]

Moondog, when people talk about 'exclusive' education they generally mean schools that exclude children through a process of overt or covert selection. TY's free school does exactly this.

'Fivecandles, the idea that inm our present state system a group of 'urban' teens could learn Japanese to a high enoguh standard for it to be of use, makes me laugh out loud.'

And yet presumably you think it makes some sort of sense to teach Latin (a language which hasn't actually been spoken for centuries) to these same children? I think you may have missed my point.

[fivecandles]

Moondog, I think you may have also missed Cecily's point. For some children there is NO 'magic ingredient' that will get them into a top university. And it's pretty bloody obvious that if every kid can and does get into a top university then said universities won't be considered 'top' any more. There is a vested interest in keeping the little oiks out of them not least the trebling of tuition fees.

[ElaineReese]

Diane Abbott is an idiot who doesn't beat any sort of drum on the subject of education, actually. And Polly Toynbee did send her children to private school (and I think less of her for it) - but I don't think you're right about Benn and Millar. Who cares anyway - what's the argument: some people are hypocritical therefore no principles are of value? Doesn't really say much to me.

Of course everyone shouldn't be 'crap' at 'one thing', and I don't see anyone saying or thinking that they should.

[fivecandles]

I am also deeply uncomfortable with the way you seem to lump all 'ethnic backgrounds' together assuming them to be all educationally disadvantaged. In fact, it has been well documented that Chinese children significantly outperform other children regardless of parental income.

Come to think of it, Moondog, what actually is your position in this debate as regards free schools? Because some of what you say does seem to be a leetle bit contradictory.

[BoffinMum]

Moondog comes across as aggressive and irrational to my eye.

Teaching unions have absolutely nothing at all to do with Free School funding.

Similarly it is appropriate enough to engage with TY on the international position because he regularly discusses things like this in his Spectator articles.

I have issues with pushing the education budget up, potentially by 10%, in times of financial crisis. I think this is an interesting project but we are ten years too early in establishing these schools.

[TalkinPeace2]

I assumed that Moondog was Mrs Young.
I am surprised that after agreeing to come on here Mr Young expected us to accept his assertions without evidence.
His view of the world is so incredibly narrow that I guess the only good thing is that the experience of running his school will make him shut up about ours.

[CecilyP]

^Cecily
'I doubt if TY has ever taught if he assumes that this could be achieved simply with good teachers, good discipline and high expectations.'

What extra magic ingredient do you think needs to be added to the mix?
An ability to get down with the kids?
A cunning way with chickpeas?
Membership of a teaching union?^

I don't think anything needs adding. Because I don't believe that you can take a mixed ability class and expect them all to go to top universities.

I know what the extra magic ingredient is-evidence based educational methods. It worked in the biggest educational experiement of all times, Project Followthrough in which disadvantaged kids from ethnic backgrounds out performed middle class white kids time and time again. I bet you've never heard of it, right? Most peopel haven't. It was all quietly shelved and effectively ignored and dismissed by the people who were (and are) resaponsible for the education and liberation of the disadvantaged.

Have you ever taught a mixed ability class, though? And no, I have never heard of Project Followthrough, though I can guess it's American. You do know that 'disadvantaged from ethnic backgrounds' is not synonymous with low intelligence, don't you? No more than middle class white means very bright.

[CecilyP]

^Ah, the myth of success for all.
Better to have everyone together pursuing one thing and being crap at it than allowing peopel to focus on what they are good at.
Fits beautifully into Toynbee-esqe fantasy of everyone excleeing at the same thing.^

But surely that is what TY is suggesting if he expects all his pupils to go on to top universities. Whereas I am quite happy to accept that pupils will have different abilities and will go on to a variety of different things.

[TalkinPeace2]

If everybody is going to do academic subjects and get degrees, is TY planning to rely on immigrants to mend his car, decorate his house, sweep the streets and empty the bins, or are those graduate jobs now?

[Xenia]

You will never compete with the private sector until the state accepts that selecting by IQ is the best way for many children. It's why schools like my daughter's get 96% A - A* in GCSE (and our local comp gest 34% A - C in GCSEs.

The state is ridiculously PC over no competitive entry by exam. Why? If they think the Good Burghers of Kent deserve state grammar schools why did people from the NE where I came from lose their grammar schools in abnout 1970s/ What is so special about Kent and Bucks which means the state is more than happy to allow selective education but not many other places? Typical British fudge.

Anyway having choice of education is great. Obviously the worse the stae schools do the better for my children in private schools but plenty of people make unwise career choices as teenage girls or boys which means they cannot buy a good education for their children. They put their desire for a fun career, art, journalism etc above doing right by their children. They then pay the price by having to find some state schools that is half decent.

Poor mr TYoung is going to be hanged if his children do get in to his school and hanged if they don't. He might have been better off spending his time (and the children's mother - plenty of women these days fund school fees) earning money to pay for a proper school rather than fiddling around with a system which must be open to all however disabled or low IQ they might be. What a weird Alice in Wonderland situation the state has got itself in to by refusing to countenance academic selection criteria.

[Xenia]

I think a goodly amount of segregation does children the world of good. Have the clever ones in schools for the bright, the musical ones often do really well in the specialist music schools, schools for the blind have produced some wonderfully confident children etc etc. I don't see any problems with non inclusive schooling.

Indeed some of the best dyslexia teaching in the UK is in the private sector in schools which particularly specialise in that.

However although I am principall behind privatisation of all schooling and vouchers for all parents which you can top up, I would support Mr Young and his programme. I think it's wonderful that we live in a country where you can choose a school ike Summerhill with no compulsory lessons or else a fundamentalist private or state Muslim school or home educate or go to Eton etc etc However without doubt one of this country's greatest products is its leading private schools which are emulated the world over and we are very lucky to have them.

[TalkinPeace2]

Xenia
I am afraid I have to utterly and fundamentally disagree with you about segregation.

Religious and racial segregation are breeding grounds for intolerance and hatred.
Socioeconomic segregation results in a lack of understanding of the breadth of society by those on all parts of the spectrum.

I went to selective Girls private schools and then an RG University.
Until I was 21 and started work I had absolutely no comprehension of the fact that there are thick people, lazy parents and those with no curiosity.

Those in our government (past and present) who attended exactly those schools you praise got us into the economic mess we are today.

A lot more mixing and understanding at all levels of business and government can only be for the good.