Do you have a good job because of your university education

[zippitippitoes]

like the government says people do?

(in retrospect I should have gone for a Comp Sci degree - but assumed I wasn't able to because I hadn't done computers at A-level (my school didn't offer that) - so pretty crap careers advice I got too).

have a degree in textile design and could not have got the job i do without it, however am way off the governments average wages for graduates. textiles is traditionally a poorly paid industry, or so our superiors always tell us. funny how everyone at my level is female, and everyone at their level is male

Don't know; I mean, I like what I do and I'm quite good at it, I think, but I don't have a control version of where I would be and what I'd be doing without a degree. It's in English. I enjoyed it, a lot.

Also have an MA specialising in Edward Lear, which has occasionally come in useful for pub quizzes.

I graduated in 1992. I did English because I thought it was a good general degree that would get me into whatever I decided to do.
In 2001 I finally got my first ever graduate job. My previous jobs had been fabulously interesting but needed only A levels. That isn't to say that my degree didn't give me an extra boost, but it wasn't necessary.
I've recently been applying for jobs again as I need to go back full time, and guess what - my degree and all my work experience is now a hindrance as employers think I'm over-qualified and over-experienced. FFS - what am I supposed to do?
I work with HE students in a small provincial university, and I can honestly say that the majority of them are thick as pigsh*t. Standard of HE has definitely dropped in the last 20 years and employers know that.

As the proud owner of what would be considered a mickey mouse degree in theatre studies and dramatic art (totally fed up with dh's cracks about me having a 2:1 in pretending to be an acorn growing into a tree), I would say that my degree has definitely influenced my career which has mostly been in entertainment or sprung from that field. It's certainly shaped my life as I loved Uni and met wonderful people there who are also still involved in theatre, acting, directing, what have you. Not quite sure what graduates in media studies do tho, advertising?

Well, I know a fair few journalists who have media studies degrees. And some PR people.

"employers think I'm over-qualified"

Agree, badhair I found that with a third I was underqualified for graduate jobs and overqualified for non-graduate jobs. A wonderful catch-22...

Although I'd recommend anyone wanting to be a journalist study something less obvious, like science. There aren't many people with a science background in journalism, which is why it is so badly reported and easily misunderstood. Plus having a science degree would help you stand out from the crowd of arts graduates.

in all honesty I am not sure if I would go to university if I was 18 now.
I had no financial support whatsover from my parents (and they were really dead set against me going, in fact threw me out of the house a one point because I wouldn't change my mind). and I was very scared of getting into loads of debt and lived very frugally. BUT I did have my grant (£2000 pa) and I didn't have to pay any fees. I did work the whole time but still ended up in debt. It was very scary knowing that there was nothing to fall back on. (I was absolutely PARANOID about getting pregnant...)
so yes I think for people with no parental support - you would have to be very determined (which I was) and even then I think you might be more likely to get twitchy and drop out once the debts mounted up.
although it might make you work harder...
and it might deter you from doing a degree if it wasn't in a vocational subject and/or from a well respected university - which may or may not be a bad thing.

It's a tough one isn't it?

I didn't go to uni and wish I had so would obviously like to give all my three the chance to. But the debt side of things is really scary. And I agree Edam - they are 18, why should what the parents earn matter as to whether they get a grant? We earn too much to get any help but not enough to be able to afford to save for uni (after mortgage and pensions) and definitely not enough to afford to finance him to a minimum of 6K a year (and that's just fees and basic accomodation).

And with the government 'encouraging' (and I use the term loosely) more students to go on to higher education, are there enough graduate posts out there to go around?

I think I'd advise my children to do a vocational degree, but only if they really think they have the vocation.

If 50% of any given population are graduates, all that means is that the price of graduates will go down. And jobs which didn't require degrees twenty years ago (or now), like retail management for example, will not employ people who don't have degrees. Not because you need a degree to do the job, but simply because if you introduce a filter in an over-crowded job market, an employer will use that filter.

And so normal people will start off their young life (what should be the freedom years, as Company Magazine used to call it) with a massive debt - but if they don't get that debt, their choice of jobs will be severely limited and very low paid. Catch 22.

Glad I didn't have that dilemma when I was young. And sad and angry that my children will have and the only way I can see round it is to study for a job that will pay shedloads. Which rules out most of the worthwhile socially useful ones.

caligula - I couldn't disagree more.

the "price" of graduates may have gone down relatively, but on average graduates do earn substantially more than non-graduates.

Yes certain jobs are now graduate jobs where they weren't before (retail management isn't one of them though - i know plenty of non-graduates who do that), but the skills learned in doing a degree are useful in those jobs.

the debt thing i don't really like either, but until the taxpayer starts putting some serious money into sub degree level vocational education, I don't really think it's fair that the whole population should pay for the elite. and even if 50% of the population become graduates (which i don't think will happen) they will still be an elite.

i have a university degree, three actually if you count the pgce as one too. i earn crap.
actually i earn nada at the moment, but thats besides the point.

My first degree is in theology from Kings, I was the first one in our family to go to University and it was a brave decision to do a subject like Theology as I was under a lot of pressure to do Law as My Mum desperatey wanted me to do something that would lead to a well paid job.

The greatest contribution financially from my degree is that I dated some wealthy boyfriends. I went into teaching as when I made my career choice my then partner has very well off so I was in the fortunate position of being able to chooose choose a job I loved rather than one that paid well.

The greatest benefit my degree has given me is that i have choices, since graduating I have walked into every job I have wanted. When I became a mother I had the choice between working or being a SAHM and knowing that choice would always be with me because as a teacher I would be off during the summer holidays with the child(ren) and therefore could combine motherhood and a career when I wished.

Having my degree has helped me hold everything togther when I got divorced, we went through some horrible times in hostels, B&Bs but I could cope as I knew my degree would enable me to go back into the job market and provide a decent (not fantastic but decent) life for my dd and myself without having to rely on others. I see other women who have been through what I have been through struggle as they have not had a qualification to fall back on.

My degree also gives me confidence in my life, I have lost a lot over the past few years but no one can ever take my qualifications away from me, they will always be there giving me something to build a new life on.

I must believe in degrees becuase I am doing another one, this time of a more vocational nature as I am doing psycholgy with a specific career path in mind. I am doing my degree with the OU this time, but as I have already done the redbrick Uni route I am hoping that the combination of a hopefully first class vocational degree from the OU with a 2:1 more classical degree from a good established university will be a winning combination.

I do not think however that a degree is for everyone, My mum forced my sister to go to Uni and it just wasn't for her. she just built up debt and then dropped out in her second year, only to try and start again only to drop out a second time. THis damaged her self esteem so much, she is now training to be a nurse and doing very well which is what she should have done all along.

I do think it is madness that the government is obsessed about getting so many young people into higher education, especially degrees. It is dumbing down our higher education system as it has to cater for a higher number of less well educated people (also caused by our abysmal secondary schooling) and is depriving many people of the career path that would suit them best.

got 3 degrees, the first one Oxbridge, the third one essential to the job I do (wouldn't have it without it), the second one um... an interesting way of filling in some time cos I really rather liked uni at that point .

Definitely hasn't made me richer... just googled 'average wage uk 2005' and apparently I am pretty much dead on average. However, has enabled me to choose a career I really want to do. And that's worth loads of £ in my book.

phillipat - the average wage is more than the majority of people earn (it's skewed upwards by the super rich).

Senora - yes graduates still earn on average more than non-graduates, but that is in general because in the past graduates were overwhelmingly middle-class, and would be earning more anyway. Working class graduates have always earned less, on average, than other graduates. (Obviously there have been exceptions, but overall it's been true.)

But if 50% of people were graduates, would graduates still earn more? I guess they would as their numbers would still disproprortionately be middle class. Now if 75% had degrees, you might get a more representative sample of the population, so incomes might level off. Who knows, there isn't a country in the world where the population has been educated to that level.

Retail management was just an example plucked out of the air. Agreed it isn't one of the jobs which applies a degree filter at the moment. But if 50% of the population had a degree, perhaps it would start to. Along with a lot of other jobs which don't need degrees to do them competently.

Actually, thinking about it, most of the jobs I've ever done have not needed a degree to do them, but without a degree I wouldn't have got an interview. That's applying an unfair filter, but in industries where there's an over-supply of applicants, it's understandable that filters are applied. I don't doubt that graduates have learned skills which can immediately be applied to those jobs, but ordinarily bright non-graduates could easily have learned those skills within the first few weeks - they will just never be given a chance to, because without a degree, they won't be allowed to put their foot in the door.

And there's an easy way to get money back from an elite - progressive tax system.

ok, fair point re progressive tax system.

as I said before though, I have employed graduates and non graduates and in all but one case the graduates were better employees in terms of self discipline etc than the non grads. I can see why jobs are becoming graduate only.

Yes.
Am a teacher so couldn't do my job without a degree.
Not many decent jobs round here but loads of teaching opportunities

Where have you been pixie??
Been thinking about you.
What is your work situation now?
How is bychan?

I had a really good job, and I 'ahem' didn't have a university education. Ner ner ner ner ner!

I have a pretty good job, which requires both a higher degree (Masters or above) and five years senior experience in a related field. I think that the personal specifications for everyone at the next level down are degree, with masters desirable, the level below that are degree, and the level below that A levels. All of my team, bar one, are graduates. To be honest it is used as a shorthand for judging someone's basic academic capacity, and it isn't a very good one. We write a lot of corporate reports, and having a degree in my experience, is no indicator of whether someone is a confident and effective writer. Although it should be - and this is for both those who graduated some time ago, and those coming through more recently. However unless we set people an exam or used a portfolio approach it is difficult to think of an alternative filter. My degree is in International Politics and Area Studies (Middle East) and I did it because it was interesting. Unfortunately I spent too much time partying, and only got a 2:2. Having a 2:1 would have opened a lot more doors, but as I graduated into a depression, it didn't really make much odds. Everyone in my family went to university, and my father started a savings account for my son when he was born (actually for his gap year!). My dh on the other hand is the first in his family to stay on at school past 16, and most of his family think he is a layabout. I do think that too many people are being encouraged to go to university that aren't really interested in studying (I don't mean because they have hangovers, but really just aren't that interested at all), and I think it is sad that young people are being pushed into making career choices and doing vocational degrees far too early. I certainly didn't know what I wanted to do when I was 18.

Interesting about graduates being more self-disciplined etc. What sort of jobs is that for, and are you talking about younger employees? I think the first few months of work are as much about learning how to work in the workplace, as about learning the job itself. Older employees tend to know how to function in the workplace, and know about self-motivation, time-management, taking responsibility etc., which younger employees who are graduates may have learned via their study. As more students go to university though, (and lecturers are already saying this is the case in first year now) more of them are going to need their hand held for the first couple of years, because they simply have not learned independent study, how to research a topic, how to get an essay in without Mum and teacher nagging them etc.) so again, those skills of self-reliance etc. may no longer be as developed.

Having employed graduates, what I have noticed about them is that they can't spell or punctuate any better than non-graduates. It just irritates me that people who ought to have a claim to be educated can't communicate fluently in the written form of their language, but I guess that makes me an old fart. And of course, that's why some employers now are applying stricter filters, so you have to have a II:1 or above to get an interview with them. If everyone has a degree and that's no guarantee that they're actually educated, then you have to find other filters.

(Gilbert and Sullivan keep popping into my mind. "When everyone is somebody.... then no-one's anybody!" )

First career - not essential to have a degree, but the majority of people did and without it, promotion was definitely harder, so I was glad to have one and moved up the ladder pretty fast.

Second career - teaching - needed a first degree to do the post graduate qualification. Whilst I went into it for the job rather than the money, the total lack of recognition of previous experience, which made me an excellent teacher from the word go (OFSTED inspectors could not believe I was an NQT during my first inspection),really angered me and I've made a decision not to return to teaching because of it. I was happy to take a significant drop in salary but not have the piss taken out of me and be paid the same money as someone straight out of Uni when I had been working for 11 years, much of it in a senior mamagement role, with a staff of 20. Bloody barmy.

Rant over.