Creative Writing Courses c.£5k - worth the money?

[WritingFreeStyle]

Hello fellow writers

There appears to be lots of on-line services aimed at aspiring authors (a bewildering array of short courses, coaching and mentoring; editing services and the full monty, the one year creative writing course). The latter promising to accompany you through all stages from starting a novel to getting it published.

The downside being the fees - I've looked at both Novelry and Jericho Writers - both around £5k. That represents a lot of money for what is effectively a gamble as of course, no one can guarantee publication as a 100% outcome. Does anyone have any experience of these? And in your view are they worth the money?

[BecauseOfIndia]

@WritingFreeStyle I can't comment on the value of any of these courses but I'm curious to know how far along in the writing process you are? I think it's better to just write and get feedback from people you trust, before committing to anything expensive. I know several people who have done more than one course / mentorship / Arvon weekend, and have still got nowhere with their novels.

I saw an advert for the Jericho writers course a few days ago and it said something along the lines of "1 in 3 students who do this course get a full manuscript request from a top agent afterwards."

I haven't done any courses and have had several full ms requests (although sadly still waiting for an offer of rep). I had a conversation with a Booker-nominated writer last year and I asked him what he thought about Creative writing MA's and (bearing in mind that he actually teaches on one) he advised me not to waste my time and money. Instead, he said "just read, read, read."

Others here will of course disagree with me, as I'm sure there are many who have secured agents etc as a result of doing the Faber course or Curtis Brown, but the point is until you try and write a novel you don't know if you're any good at it. Beta readers are free and some of the best advice and feedback I've had on how to improve my novel has come from people who simply love books and reading.

[Newgirls]

I think curtis brown are cheaper than that? City university also has some. I’m sure local colleges also have good writing courses that are more affordable

a course can be great to help you focus and avoid common mistakes but you can also find lots of books about writing that will help you get started

[mrstambourinewoman]

I do agree with becauseofindia in that finding beta readers can be incredibly useful. And def important to know what stage of the writing journey you're at.

I've done several courses ( Curtis brown / Faber) and I credit the CB for giving me confidence at the beginning of my journey which was absolutely invaluable.

I'm published now but other than give me confidence, I'm not sure the courses taught me anything I couldn't learn myself through reading / writing and sharing with beta readers.

Good luck op!

[Mumoftwo1312]

Get the book "how not to write a novel" by Howard mittelmark - he was an editor I believe and compiled all the mistakes found in rejected scripts. It's also hilarious.

Creative writing courses and competitions are outrageous profiteering rackets (except for publicly/charity-funded ones for children). They know you're vanishingly unlikely to make your money back through sales.

[everythingcrossed]

@BecauseOfIndia

@WritingFreeStyle I can't comment on the value of any of these courses but I'm curious to know how far along in the writing process you are? I think it's better to just write and get feedback from people you trust, before committing to anything expensive. I know several people who have done more than one course / mentorship / Arvon weekend, and have still got nowhere with their novels.

I saw an advert for the Jericho writers course a few days ago and it said something along the lines of "1 in 3 students who do this course get a full manuscript request from a top agent afterwards."

I haven't done any courses and have had several full ms requests (although sadly still waiting for an offer of rep). I had a conversation with a Booker-nominated writer last year and I asked him what he thought about Creative writing MA's and (bearing in mind that he actually teaches on one) he advised me not to waste my time and money. Instead, he said "just read, read, read."

Others here will of course disagree with me, as I'm sure there are many who have secured agents etc as a result of doing the Faber course or Curtis Brown, but the point is until you try and write a novel you don't know if you're any good at it. Beta readers are free and some of the best advice and feedback I've had on how to improve my novel has come from people who simply love books and reading.

I agree with @BecauseOfIndia . I've known a handful of people who have done these sorts of courses and there seems (to me) a lot of thinking about what you want to write, setting goals etc and the writing, when it is eventually required, is quite short word counts. I hate to say it, but they can be a place to meet like-minded people rather than to write. I have been shocked by how little evidence of a candidate's ability these companies require before signing people up.

[WritingFreeStyle]

@BecauseOfIndia There's another thread I started here -
I've just written a book in eight weeks! But now what do I do?

I have written a book which I'm now giving a rest for me to return to and revise the MS. You say in your post "the point is until you try and write a novel you don't know if you're any good at it" and that is exactly where I'm at.

So I have now written a novel and I still don't know if I'm any good at it - I don't feel my prose compares well to what I read in published books, but how much of that is valid and how much is just my internal gremlin critic? I'm hearing from a lot of authors and creative writing sites that writing is not something you either have or haven't, but a skill that can be developed, sharpened and honed with a lot of hard work and practice, practice, practice. Oh, and lots of reading, of course.

I have delved into the world of creative writing, literary agents and publishing and fortunately have found ample resources I can use for free to brush up my prose, as well as plenty of informative books. Thanks to @Mumoftwo1312 for your recommendation by the way, which I've now ordered.

What I'm trying to say is that I have a manuscript, quite well plotted with some good characters, (handful of readers say they wanted to keep turning the pages), but I know it's not great writing; and to attract an agent I think I will have to make some substantial changes, never mind up my writing game. Also, I can't afford £5k to go on any CR course. So if I use all the free resources, good reference books and am prepared to do a lot of work on my existing MS, are my chances of being published commensurate compared to investing in CR?

My suspicions also are that these courses are run to make an income for existing writers as I read somewhere that the average UK writer's annual earnings was £7k - so a lot of authors need day jobs as well as published books in order to earn a living. There appears to be an abundance of aspiring authors out there, their dreams waiting to be mined by the whole CR industry.

[BecauseOfIndia]

@WritingFreeStyle Totally agree with your last paragraph. The author I talked about was embarrassed about teaching on an MA course and said he did it purely for the money. He didn't actually believe that people could be taught to write and said that doing an MA would likely ruin my writing, rather than improve it!

Re: your other thread. It sounds like you are very much at the first draft stage. I've been working on my book for 3 years and still don't consider it 'finished'. I have probably redrafted/edited/rewritten the entire thing at least 15 times.

It sounds like you could do with some feedback from people who aren't close to you but who read your genre. Ask them to be brutally honest, which can be incredibly painful but in the long run it's the only way to improve. Do you know anyone in a book group? One of my early beta readers was a friend of a friend, who didn't know me personally but was very active in a book group. Her feedback was incredibly detailed and the criticisms were spot on.

You can sign up for free to Jericho writers and you could do a call out for beta readers via the forum there, or see if there is anyone on here who would be prepared to read it for you?

[GhostImposter]

First off, for full disclosure, I'm in Ireland and entitled to a full grant, so my fees are more than covered which obviously makes a huge difference. But I'm on a creative writing MA at the moment and it's by far and away the best thing I could have done for my writing. My initial motivation for doing the MA was to put myself into a writing headspace and get some accountability to make me write. I didn't think you could teach writing, at all, but I was totally wrong. I've learned an awful lot, including that I'm someone who takes good critical feedback really well and can channel it into making my work much better. I have honestly never written as well, nor did I think I was capable of writing as well, as I have with some of the work I've done in the last few months.

The thing is though, different teachers have completely different approaches and teaching ability. The main teacher I had last semester was a highly skilled editor. She knew just how to look at a piece and see what wasn't quite working in a way that absolutely inspired me to produce something so much better. I'm not working with anyone like her this semester, so I'm currently in the phase where I'm just about managing to hone in on the things I need to do to elevate my prose to the level that I now know I'm capable of. It's probably the absolute toughest part of the writing process that I've ever encountered. I can pinpoint the passages in my own writing that I need to polish but haven't quite managed to hit the magic that I felt last semester. I'm nearly there though.

That said, I do intend to start a novel editing course or maybe a paid mentorship once my MA is finished. I have a first draft completed, some really good and nearly really good chapters done. By the time I'm finished, I should have a really polished first third of a novel and at least a second draft of the rest. But I'm genuinely scared that once I am out of this part of my life that's filled with writing classes and interactions with writers, that I'll stop. I have learned that I am actually a good writer with a good concept that I am so far pulling off well but I'm somehow also loaded with self doubt. If I wasn't on the MA I would have talked myself out of continuing numerous times by now. I need the outside assistance just to keep me motivated. But I'm also really excited at the prospect of getting more editorial help that might inspire me to keep growing and improving upon what I can produce.

As I stated in my opening, the MA isn't costing me anything but my time so I'm coming at this from a very different perspective than most people. But writing absolutely can be taught and anyone who thinks it can't just maybe isn't that good a teacher or hasn't had the benefit of a great teacher. Writing and teaching are two different skills and someone can be a wonderful writer but not have the ability to teach at all. I think there can also be a chemistry situation and sometimes both the mentor and mentee need to be right for each other. Which unfortunately makes the whole course situation an utter crap shoot. You could strike gold or you could end up with something utterly average and you won't know until after you've paid.

[GhostImposter]

Just to add, I started off doing my MA well aware that the vast majority of people who do CW MAs don't end up going on to get published. To me it was definitely just a (big) step on a long journey. I also haven't really seen too many MAs that advertise themselves with implied promises of getting published. Whereas courses like Faber Academy/Curtis Brown etc, do seem to sell themselves by stating the success rates of their students getting published, so there is something of an implied promise to them. I think that must put students into a completely different headspace when they sign up. It's essentially paying thousands to significantly shorten the odds, with pretty much everyone who does the course, assuming to some extent that they will be one of the successful ones.

[WritingFreeStyle]

@BecauseOfIndia I agree, I think a beta reader will be the way to go, once I've done a proper revision of the MS. Also have just found a local writers' group so I may be able to offer a reading swap.

@GhostImposter thanks for sharing your experiences here. I imagine that the course content - and focus - will be different between an MA versus a CW course marketed with the express purpose of publication; though it's encouraging to hear that formal training can improve writing technique.

[BadSkiingMum]

I have dabbled in writing - written a full draft of one book and have another on the back burner. It’s not something I am doing at present because I have another big project underway. But I’m interested enough to open this thread!

Anyway, I do believe that the process of writing to a publishable standard can be taught. It is an industry at the end of the day, rather than a pure art form.

A decade ago I wanted to get into feature writing. I bought a book and began to follow the advice in the first few chapters. I was almost immediately successful, because the book had opened my eyes to what was actually needed in a professional marketplace. I sold a feature and had to actually skip ahead in the book in order to find out about the later stages of the process! I did feature writing for about a year until I started a new job and, even though the activity wasn’t profitable in itself, that little book paid for itself many times over.

So if a course is teaching you how to get published then I think it could be worthwhile. How to improve your writing, maybe not.

[Carole18]

Have you thought of going to a literary consultant? I went with Cornerstones a few years ago and found them really helpful. You can send in either the first three chapters plus synopsis plus whole book.
I also highly recommend Save the Cat Writes a Novel with Jessica Brody.

[MarmaladeSunset]

I've done a shorter course with Curtis Brown (one of the £200ish quid ones, beginner novel writing course) and did a year-long course with the Novelry a few years ago (when it was cheaper, though still pricey).

The Novelry Book in a Year course (old course title)
Pros:

• Attended lots of writer talks and learned how all writers approach the task in slightly different ways (eg plotting v pansting)
• Met other writers (still have some on WhatsApp now I've left)
• Liked the online forum/community for recommendations for books on writing, one-off masterclasses, asking questions
• The editors there know what they're doing

Cons:

• Wasn't impressed by the course material and structure (or lack of structure) - long, rambling course, too many lessons, too much waffle, hard to work out which were the useful bits
• Author tutors - all lovely people but very different styles of tutoring, being an author doesn't necessarily make you a good mentor or coach. Sessions were more about general encouragement than meaningful help with the novel
• If you don't do your book in a year your access to what you've paid for runs out and you have to renew and spend more £££
• If you commit to doing a book in a year but don't follow the timelines you end up with editor sessions to use up but material that isn't good enough to see an editor with yet

Google 'author accelerator book coaches' - they're an American company but they have some UK book coaches. They also teach people how to be book coaches. Looking at their teaching methods they are super thorough, and their coaches are properly trained. Unlike the Novelry where they're just people who have written novels themselves. Seeing their training courses made me realise the Novelry tutors are just winging it.

The Novelry's ultimate manuscript assessment is done by a proper editor and I've heard they're good, and if you submit your novel with them they can submit to agents on your behalf and this brings back replies sooner than if you'd just submitted to the slush pile. V expensive though compared to other manuscript services elsewhere.

Cornerstones have been around for ever, I hear they have good quality editors.

Have a look at the book 'Seven drafts' as that will give you a good sense of how to tackle editing once you've finished the first draft.

This blog is good for general writing resources:
https://emmadarwin.typepad.com/thisitchofwriting/resources.html

Having wasted some money en route and learned what not to do, my recommendation would be:

• Get as far as you can on your own first using free online resources, seven drafts book, structure books like save the cat and the virgin's promise.
• After the above, if input is needed use a freelance professional editor (Cornerstones or use Google to find another) to do a developmental edit - this will give you the best feedback on where you're losing readers and what you need to improve across the whole manuscript.
• If you can't afford the above, get a submission package assessment, at least this will get you some feedback on those all important first chapters.

Best of luck with the novel

[SnowFrogJelly]

I've done a creative writing MA with the Open Uni.. expensive but I loved it

[shearwater2]

@BadSkiingMum

I have dabbled in writing - written a full draft of one book and have another on the back burner. It’s not something I am doing at present because I have another big project underway. But I’m interested enough to open this thread!

Anyway, I do believe that the process of writing to a publishable standard can be taught. It is an industry at the end of the day, rather than a pure art form.

A decade ago I wanted to get into feature writing. I bought a book and began to follow the advice in the first few chapters. I was almost immediately successful, because the book had opened my eyes to what was actually needed in a professional marketplace. I sold a feature and had to actually skip ahead in the book in order to find out about the later stages of the process! I did feature writing for about a year until I started a new job and, even though the activity wasn’t profitable in itself, that little book paid for itself many times over.

So if a course is teaching you how to get published then I think it could be worthwhile. How to improve your writing, maybe not.

Sorry to jump on the thread here, but could you let us know the name of the book about feature writing? Glad it clicked for you, it sounds brilliant.

[BlastedPimples]

Curtis Brown Creative are much cheaper.

[BadSkiingMum]

Yes, it was called ‘How to Pitch and Sell a Freelance Feature’.

[WritingFreeStyle]

@MarmaladeSunset Thanks for sharing your honest experiences of CW courses, and for your hints and tips. The Emma Darwin toolkit is priceless; I've not come across her until you provided the link. I still can't get over how many authors are out there, sharing their experience and expertise - so much of it for nothing!

I've had a week of writing doldrums thanks to my lively inner critic but hoping I will be shaking her off shortly.

[Luckydog7]

I'm on my third session of a writing workshop which has been great. There are no lesson or lectures. We get a writing prompt then 20minutes to write a scene. We then read aloud and discuss. Then do it again. The dicuss therefore is on identifying strengths and weaknesses, areas where people were confused or something didn't come across as intended etc.

We do sessions in-between where we do longer form work, reading a prepared chapter from our novel and getting more in-depth feedback. It's run by two published writers.

Because it's so focussed on practical application it's really motivating and I always feel my creative juices flowing afterwards. They are only once per month and you pay per session. Is there something similar you could do?

I have done 10 week writing courses before and while they were ok there was too much waffling about concepts. I do think it massively depends on your tutor and the approach they take. There isn't one way to write after all and tutors should be giving you tools that you can apply if you find things aren't working for you.

[Luckydog7]

I think I read your original post op, if you want a real stranger to read and feedback I would be very happy to. I've been told I'm good at being constructive.

[AmaryllisChorus]

The way to learn to write is to read and to write as much as you can.

Read excellent work by writers you admire, both in the genre you are working in and widely around it, to give you a broader perspective. Read as a writer, not a reader. Analyse things you think are brilliant and ask yourself how they achieved that effect. Don't just analyse small passages, look at the overall structure and pace of the book.

In addition, read books on craft but don't follow the advice slavishly or passively. Analyse what would work for your story.

Write frequently. Edit work several times before sending it. Use beta readers (friends of friends - no one too close, who are ideal target readers) and take their feedback seriously. Edit again. Then send out.

5k is a lot of money. To me, that money represents free time. I'd rather spend it on a one to one writing mentor or a good editor than a course where you spend half the time reading and critiquing other wannabe's work. You can do that for free in a writing group. Spend the money, if you want to, on close focus on your work alone.

[GhostImposter]

@AmaryllisChorus I definitely think that 1-2-1 mentoring is well worth considering, instead of a course, as long as you find the right mentor. As I consider what I'd like to do once I graduate from my MA, I'm deciding between an editing course and a mentor. I think a mentor would definitely be the best as long as the mentor is the right person. The person who can pull at the parts of my work that aren't quite right and just give me enough of an outsider perspective to inspire me in the right direction. But how do you make sure that the person you pay, is that perfect person?

[WritingFreeStyle]

Thanks everyone, I really appreciate you all sharing experiences on here. @Luckydog7 that is a very generous offer, though at this stage my MS needs a lot of work on it so I wouldn't want to waste your time reviewing material that is definitely going to change.

[Luckydog7]

Admittedly I'm just incredibly curious. I've been working on my book/books for years and no where near where you are so wondering how fresh and new an 8 week project will feel compared to my own laboured attempts that don't get better, just different....er. I bet writing it felt amazing!

[WritingFreeStyle]

e @Luckydog7
Interesting to hear your perspective on writing. I was going to PM you but thought I should add my reply to the thread as it may or may not be of interest to other writers ...

Yes, those 8 weeks were amazing - I enjoyed writing the book a lot! I was buzzing, had a lot of feel-good hormones every day. Once I'd written it, though, I started to come down from a high, probably like trying to wean myself off a drug. Also, when I was writing back then, I was a total novice and naive about the whole world of CW, the book industry and getting books published.

The whole thing about getting published - only1% of all manuscripts; the importance of the "perfect pitch" to hook a formidable Literary Agent; it's all rather daunting. I have discounted self-publishing as I reckon without an active SM profile, the book would sink like a stone tossed into the sea.

Since then, and having spent far too long reading about writing rather than just writing, I think I have boxed myself into Gremlins Corner. Everything I now read, I think, no way can I write like this, to this standard ... and start to feel a bit hopeless and discouraged. Somewhere between starting my MS and right now, I've forgotten how to write just for the simple pleasure of it.

Interestingly, a friend of mine (does not live locally) is in a writing group which has published authors as members ... i get the impression they have deliberately withheld a lot of information re publishing next steps until she completes the first draft of her own book and I can see why! Like you, Luckydog, she has been working on her first novel for some time and she was aghast that I'd managed mine in such a comparatively short space of time!