Schools will shut, and who will be complaining then?

[StartingGrid]

The sheer amount of people stating "my kids still have to go to school, so why should I do x,y,z..." are so short-sighted... when this fake lockdown doesn't work because of the above, watch an early Xmas closure be rolled out.
A lot of them will be stuffed for childcare but aren't thinking of the consequences of their current actions. I'd eat my hat if the government hadn't initiated this knowing they could blame non-compliance for needing the additional measures down the line but didn't want to look like the bad guys denying education initially. What's the saying about "jam today"?

[TheEmojiFormerlyKnownAsPrince]

Bungle, how do you know schools near you have had no cases? No one gets told anything.

[NullcovoidNovember]

Starting no! And yet they are dead set against masks because... They disrupt education??!

[NullcovoidNovember]

I would like the measures noble mentioned.
But at the moment it at least when real winter hits I'd like blended learning, at home being taught at per the normal time table. With one or two days in school....

Then have the masks etc, anything to get us through winter.

[StartingGrid]

A friend working in a primary school is just coming to the end of two weeks SI as a child in her bubble tested positive, now the whole school has had to close as senior staff are positive. If this is representative of most schools across the country the disruption can't be helping a steady education. I think the reports of it mostly being secondary schools are paving the way to close those early for Xmas at least. A secondary teacher I know during lockdown was deployed into teaching primary, I can see resources being thrown at keeping primary education limping on as close to Xmas as possible.

[Aragog]

I'm starting to worry about having to isolate over Christmas.
A number of our classes had to SI over half term which was bad enough, but Christmas - especially if we are finally able to see family and friends even in small numbers - will be awful if stuck inside the house for the whole time.

I don't have any answer for solving that but I can see a lot of people breaking SI at the very least if it happens, and it's bound to happen for some children/classes isn't it?

[FredtheFerret]

@monkeytennis97. Thank you very much. Feeling a bit better today but very, very exhausted.

[monkeytennis97]

@FredtheFerret wishing you well

[motherrunner]

Year 13 at my school out again. 4th period of isolation. They only came back Friday!

What with Key Stage 3 asked to stay home because of staffing issues, it’s like the Mary Celeste. A student in my form said ‘we should play a game ... spot the teacher!’

I would laugh if I’m wasn’t so stressed.

[ItStartedWithAKiss241]

Half of the schools in my area are closed because of staff self-isolating and not enough supplies anyway x

[MrsFezziwig]

I am so frustrated by the people who really need schools to stay open but who are carrying as normal and ignoring the current lockdown rules. I don't understand why they can't see the connection between socialising with everyone and anyone, and schools closing for outbreaks.

Absolutely this. People don’t seem to understand the simple fact that the number of interactions matter - so on a general scale a child who only interacts with other children at school has less chance of catching the virus than one who not only interacts at school but also mixes in different social groups out of school - rather than the “oh well the kids are mixing at school so it’s fine for them to mix out of school and we (the parents) are in contact with them so we might as well be in contact with other parents” viewpoint.

[FredtheFerret]

I don’t think there any indication in that graph about whether the infections are from school, after school activities or socialising

I am a secondary teacher, currently absent due to testing positive for Covid. I feel extremely poorly; I'm close to 60 and was vulnerable. Because of this I have been driving myself to work, in my own car. Working all day in school, and driving home again. DH is ECV. He works from home and sees no one. We have had shopping delivered since March and have not left the house unless we absolutely had to.

In the month before I tested positive I literally went to school, home and nowhere else.

Do you want to suggest there might be somewhere else I've caught it - rather than from one of the 150 unmasked teenagers a day I sit in a small classroom with all day?

[noblegiraffe]

But they’ve been reducing for over a month in some areas and levelling off in others

Have you got a breakdown of infection rates (not case numbers) by age and area? I think the ONS only do it nationally in their analysis.

I don’t think there any indication in that graph about whether the infections are from school, after school activities or socialising

No but it would be silly to ignore a plausible correlation between spending your school week in high risk environment with lots of contacts and no mitigation measures, and increasing infection rates. That is a more likely suspect than a socially distanced out of school activity where the rules are often much stricter. Socialising may be an issue which is why it is interesting to see a dip at half term when schooling ceases and socialising increases.

[BungleandGeorge]

I think if infection rates are increasing in secondary school aged children more than in every other age group

But they’ve been reducing for over a month in some areas and levelling off in others. The peak on the ONS graph actually corresponds with our half term and shows a decrease since then. I don’t think there any indication in that graph about whether the infections are from school, after school activities or socialising because for a lot of the country we’ve been allowed to do all of those things at the same time.

I’m not sure who is insisting masks are impossible to introduce. Some schools have already done this, the guidance doesn’t preclude it based on SLT risk assessment. Majority of teachers at ours have declined though 🤷‍♀️

[Legoandloldolls]

There is no way on earth we will be experiencing a normal Christmas. No way on earth. You could close every school for the next month and it would be pointless if everyone meeting up in inside on mass at Christmas.

This isnt going anywhere for a long time yet. My kids are at school and I am not breaking any rules because I dont want to and besides I have Jack shit choice. Where the fuck would I go right now? Hang out with my mates in a car park drinking like a 16 year old? 🙄

[noblegiraffe]

I’m not sure England averages are that useful as the situation is totally different in different parts of the country.

I think if infection rates are increasing in secondary school aged children more than in every other age group apart from uni students, then that suggests that there’s an issue in secondary schools. Regardless of where a school is in the country, there is a reasonable potential for spread in a school once it gets in, which should be a concern wherever you live.

I don’t think face coverings are universal abroad, not in classrooms when seated anyway

But common enough that one wonders why there is such insistence that their introduction would be impossible here.

In classes with a positive case aren’t they all sent home to isolate for 14 days anyway

No, the DfE decides who gets sent home and it’s as few people as possible. Definitely not the teacher. Probably just the kids sat directly surrounding.

[BungleandGeorge]

I’m not sure England averages are that useful as the situation is totally different in different parts of the country. There’s plenty of schools in my area that haven’t had a single case. I’m not discounting that school transmission rate could vary in magnitude depending on the background infection rate or other factors.

I don’t think face coverings are universal abroad, not in classrooms when seated anyway. It’s quite controversial whether they actually help to spread the infection, particularly if not used properly and changed regularly. They are allowed at my sons school and there is very low uptake from the teachers (mandatory for students), same with social distancing. In classes with a positive case aren’t they all sent home to isolate for 14 days anyway, or does that vary by school too?

[noblegiraffe]

what additional measures do people want?

Masks, like everywhere else internationally
Better ventilation (see Germany for how to do this)
Regular testing to flush out asymptomatic cases, particularly in classes where there has been a positive case.
Social distancing from pupils mandated, and not just 'where possible'.

[noblegiraffe]

I don't know where you are, George, but infection rates in secondary schools have been increasing since September in England, quite dramatically, with a bit of a dip at half term.

You may be thinking of confirmed cases which of course depends on kids being taken for tests. The DfE are actively discouraging people from getting their kid tested.

[BungleandGeorge]

It’s been going down since the end of September. There will be transmission in schools but that doesn’t mean they are driving the transmission. Asymptomatic kids would be passing it to their parents, a number of whom would be in the risk groups, I don’t think it’s the case that it would go totally under the radar. I agree research is important, there is also research from abroad on transmission in schools. I’m not sure there seems to be any consensus about what measures people think would make schools safer. Barring a respirator mask which are very limited in availability and I imagine would be impossible to teach in, what additional measures do people want?

[IceCreamAndCandyfloss]

Lots don’t bother testing children as claim they know it’s just a cold etc and I wonder how many didn’t bother testing over half term so they wouldn’t be confined to the home.

[noblegiraffe]

If you look at the infection rates in secondary age group it’s going down more than other age groups in some areas

Are you talking about infection rates or case numbers? And if it’s going down in secondary age kids just after half term when schools were closed, what does that suggest?

[Aragog]

Trouble is they aren't doing much research within schools. The numbers are also not being properly monitored.

Based in my t and t info, and my talks with the hospital doctors, I almost certainly caught Covid in school, probably from a symptom free child - only place I have close contact with anyone (the children not the staff) bar Dh.

Few children are being tested as the types of symptoms children get aren't the testable ones.

Schools simply aren't 'safe' or Covid secure right now. That's very clear.

[Feckers2018]

If a member of a bubble in my school tests positive then the bubble bursts. It depends on when they tested positive and then 48 hrs before that.

[BungleandGeorge]

If you are in the CV group you will be somewhere on the priority list for CV vaccine. They have said if and when more vaccine is available they may add further groups. However, I think it is absolutely right that people who are in the at risk groups for covid will be the first vaccinated. That will be millions and millions of people, it’s going to be an enormous task to find enough HCP to do all those vaccinations in the midst of a pandemic. I don’t think it will be nearly as quick as some people would like.

If you look at the infection rates in secondary age group it’s going down more than other age groups in some areas. What I don’t think we should be doing is bringing in measures purely to pacify people and make them ‘feel’ safer. We do have quite a lot of evidence now, I’d like to see further guidance for schools using that evidence. Things like working without adequate ventilation really shouldn’t be tolerates

[Aragog]

My vaccine reference was re the new Covid vaccine, I should clarify.

I am already eligible for a flu vaccine - I had it in September/early October.

Didn't fancy flu and Covid in one winter, and Covid felt inevitable.