The effect of schools staying open on people's compliance

[bringbackCabanas]

I DO NOT want schools to close. I'm happy to send my kids in and will continue to do so.

But, the amount of times I hear, or read on here, "well if they sit at school together all day then they can do x y z outside of school" or "my child is mixing with x amount of people five days a week so what's the point of following the rules?"

Basically that if schools are still open then it's not really a "lockdown" and not everyone will take it seriously.

[Velvian]

I don't think you should take every criticism or moan about the rules as an intention to break them. That's the biggest issues on MN. Someone has a moan about the shitness of the situation, followed by loads of respondents immediately shutting them down. Virtue signaling and extrapolating a moan to the poster being a law breaker, planning an illegal rave.

People can disagree and still comply.

[NeurotrashWarrior]

If I didn't have children and wasn't a teacher, id personally comply.

It's having children that changes your attitude. As you know how germ infested they are.

It will come back to bite everyone when schools close due to infections though. I think many areas haven't experienced that ongoing hell.

[Remmy123]

As mentioned before

I am tier 2 yet all schools in my area have only had one year closed .. this includes secondary / teachers etc / office staff

So, the schools are not driving this in my area.

[NeurotrashWarrior]

@RedToothBrush

If all the schools in other countries in europe close, pressure will grow on johnson to close the schools.
If we have a LOT of school closures due to positive tests in the SE next week, pressure will grown on Johnson to close schools.

Personally my money is on high schools switching to home learning by the end of November/ beginning of December. But we shall see.

I suspect Primary Schools are more likely to remain open throughout though.

Yes I think this will happen. Sooner in some areas.

[NeurotrashWarrior]

Need to add we've followed all rules and not even been to wider shops and bars and pubs etc when we could.

The only extra mixing I've ever done was go to two people's houses for coffee / a bbq and take ds for his extremely well run safe swimming lesson.

I met a few mums in the park for the brief time we were allowed to in the NE and some mates on the beach.

Our only change is no more swimming. (Hoping nat trust stuff still open but unsure yet.)

[Racoonworld]

Completely agree. I don’t have school age children, I don’t care if schools are open or not. But I’m not giving up my life for another month (which lets be honest is likely to be longer) if schools are open so lockdown isn’t even given chance to work.

[NeurotrashWarrior]

You are right OP.

I don't want full closure despite putting my own and my family's health at risk. As too many of my primary Sen pupils lives really would be put at risk, more than the risk to their health.

But I've observed my own attitude and behaviour and that of my colleagues changing. Certainly there will be parents who argue, well they're all mixing at school anyway.

Due to restrictions locally we can't minimise contacts any further; they were already reduced to nothing, online shopping etc.

Which means no difference from a psychological POV. Bar no gyms or pubs.

[OddBoots]

Are these the same people who say 'well I had a big lunch with a massive pudding, I may as well have a take-away for tea and eat crisps and chocolates all evening'?

[SoloMummy]

@Sonnenscheins

I’m among those who don’t see the point if I’m forced to allow my children to mix in school.

Don't you feel grateful that your child can go to school?

I'd feel grateful if proper home learning or blended learning was set up, so that there were reduced numbers in the classes and proper social distancing in place.

I would rather my child was 100% safe at home with me atm as I'm on the shielding list, so attending school in the current manner with what amounts to no preventative measures, educates and could potentially lead to an orphan who will forever know their schooling killed their parent.

This is a repeated scenario throughout the UK.

[Smelliethenelephant]

Thanks @midgebabe for explaining R value, literally never heard of it before. You do know that it is just a number and not an ACTUAL MAGIC THING though right? What you're missing is a) if R is only slightly below 1 there's still going to be a lot of cases for a long time and b) a national R below 1 could still have individual communities and schools with R rates that are much, much higher and where you are exposing vulnerable parents and teachers to risk.

There is nowhere with the same current risk as secondary schools apart from, maybe, unis and pubs. There is no equal trade off by closing shops and leisure, those venues are largely safe anyway. But as there are so many people who just won't be convinced about this, I'll just say wait and see.

[Silversun83]

@Sunflowers246

I will comply and make sacrifices SO THAT schools and hospitals can stay open.

This.

[BogRollBOGOF]

The structure, education and socialisation of my DCs remaining in school makes it easier to comply. The DCs needs are met. I am able to comply and meet my social needs for quiet time and external company.

We were climbing into playgrounds by June because my 7yo was showing depressive behaviour for weeks.
We go out walking with another family of 4 because it's wrong to be banned from seeing friends in a low risk environment for what may well be towards a year and my children have a right to maintain that friendship. Especially when we are now at the point that it's a year since they have seen some family due to logistical reasons. Especially when having ASD, DS1's close friendships are rare, precious and can't be maintained remotely.

I am prepared to pause that for the stated 4 weeks. Not indefinitely.

[Ihatemyseleffordoingthis]

The impact of children not being in school on our collective future recovery from this shitshow is massive.

I think our supposed government are unwilling however to put in place strategies to make schools safer environments (rota for older kids, masks, allow them to use other spaces & locations, proper testing available) is purely because it doesn't play well to the gallery of their core vote. Oh and incompetence.

[Sonnenscheins]

If all the schools in other countries in europe close, pressure will grow on johnson to close the schools.

I can't see Germans accepting school closures!

[Popcornriver]

Of course it will reduce compliance. The first lockdown had people believe they were making sacrifices to protect others and themselves - now that schools are open many will think oh I'll get it anyway, it's inevitable while the schools are open under current conditions. Of course some will then decide they might as well continue as normal as they can

[RedToothBrush]

If all the schools in other countries in europe close, pressure will grow on johnson to close the schools.
If we have a LOT of school closures due to positive tests in the SE next week, pressure will grown on Johnson to close schools.

Personally my money is on high schools switching to home learning by the end of November/ beginning of December. But we shall see.

I suspect Primary Schools are more likely to remain open throughout though.

[ParrotheadRedux]

@Smelliethenelephant

You can 'sacrifice'all you want but understand your 'sacrifice' is literally pointless if your kids are in a secondary school where the virus is circulating.

But that’s not actually true, do you not see that? It’s not a black and white issue of exposure vs non-exposure. It’s more like a continuum, where more and longer incidents of exposure cause transmission to rise, and less exposure slows the transmission. And every regulation must of course be balanced against its negative effects. So even if exposure at school is allowed, it does NOT negate the effect of lessening exposure elsewhere.

No matter what happens there will never be a complete lockdown — people will always need to care for the vulnerable, keep the food supply going, and quite literally keep the lights on. That doesn’t mean all other lockdown efforts are pointless. In fact, those essential workers themselves should still try to limit their exposure to what is essential.

Right now the effects of closing school are deemed too great to warrant closing, but obviously if it gets too high that will have to happen. We can help prevent that and keep our kids in school by minimizing all other contact.

Do you honestly not get this? I will check back in case you have more questions.

[Redlocks30]

There are already loads of people on our local 8/10 mums FB group saying there’s no point in not going to the playground with school friends as they are together in a classroom/hall/playground all day.

I suspect compliance will be low.

[DBML]

We need R to be below 1. Not 0. Therefore we can afford to have some mixing of people. Then we prioritise which mixing we allow

So if you’re a teacher or member of staff working at the school and either you get the virus or bring it home to your family, that’s OK ...as long as the R rate doesn’t go over 1.

I think some people are being expected to take bigger risks and make bigger sacrifices than others.

[ParrotheadRedux]

@Mumofsend

The school thing doesnt bother me. Due to SDDs additional needs she only really leaves the house to go to school anyway. The one that1 reduces my compliance is good old Dominic Cummings. Nearly broke me not having support for the first lockdown. Then to hear the idea of putting family first... that's what I will be doing this time

I agree with this 💯. The actions of Dominic Cummings have and continue to massively affect compliance. Before that happened most people were living within the rules, often to the substantial detriment of themselves and their families, in service of the greater good. Lone parents, carers, the disabled, the elderly, people with no family or friends to Zoom with for emotional support, those who lost their incomes and essential workers who were exposed to Covid daily all complied — even when it felt arbitrary, even when their particular situation was made nearly impossible and a common-sense solution was clear. And for once (to varying degrees of course) it felt like people in power, celebrities, and the wealthy were affected too. We were all mucking in.

Then along comes Dominic Cummings, a married father of one and a man with bottomless financial and social resources, claiming that his family situation was so unique and and desperate that it warranted breaking the rules. What a kick in the pants for those of us who had sacrificed so much already. And worse yet there was no resignation and no public mea culpa of any kind. To the contrary, Boris accepted the truly farcical explanation Cummings offered for his actions.

How can people be expected to trust the government and follow the rules after that?? It might be different if Cummings has admitted fault or offered some type of apology, or if Boris had imposed any kind of consequences on him. But that didn’t happen, and here we are. Fuck them.

[hapagirl]

I have always said I would do anything g to keep my 3 DCs in school and I will. We are in Scotland central belt so have been under pretty strict rules for a while now which I follow. Their generation’s education is the priority now especially since they will be paying for this pandemic with their taxes for the rest of their lives probably.

[RudeAF]

It’s so frustrating. I have no children and live alone in London - yes technically I can have a support bubble but it’s not really that simple and I don’t “need” one so I barely see anyone. I will comply but it makes me wonder why I’m bothering when people seem to think their kids should be able to go to school and then be out and about and in contact with a load of other people at the weekend. People living in families, especially with multiple children so the kids have siblings, are not isolated and frankly if you don’t like your family then that’s your problem and nothing to do with COVID!

[3littlewords]

@Sunflowers246

I will comply and make sacrifices SO THAT schools and hospitals can stay open.

This!

Its about reducing our overall interactions to stem transmission. Some interactions are essential like learning or working or providing support for someone, some interactions like meeting for coffee , going to the gym, extra curricular activities, playdates, having beauty treatments arent essential at the moment . The less we do outside of school the less chance of taking the virus into school to spread on to others.

[midgebabe]

See chew, if they mix and you mix that's more mixing than if just the children mix

If they mix and you don't, your family may still have a higher than average mixing value, true. But lower than if you mix also.

Luckily some people will have lower mixing values, so helping your family out

If everyone with above average mixing decided not to bother, then we will be up shit creek . We need to get the average mixing value down.

So yes, some people will be above average, but that's ok provided the average mixing value is low enough

[Chewbecca]

Given DS is mingling pretty freely at school & travelling by bus, and DGD is going to nursery 3 days & spending 1 day pw here, I do think that whatever else I do / do not do is unlikely to make much difference at all.