The effect of schools staying open on people's compliance

[bringbackCabanas]

I DO NOT want schools to close. I'm happy to send my kids in and will continue to do so.

But, the amount of times I hear, or read on here, "well if they sit at school together all day then they can do x y z outside of school" or "my child is mixing with x amount of people five days a week so what's the point of following the rules?"

Basically that if schools are still open then it's not really a "lockdown" and not everyone will take it seriously.

[WhoWants2Know]

It's not easy to explain to a kid why they can't hang out at the park with the same people they have spent the day with at school.

[Sonnenscheins]

The government has chosen quite correctly to "spend" most of the risk budget on schools and universities, and so there is not enough budget left to allow other non- essential interaction. It's not a difficult concept to grasp, but people don't want to.

Yes I agree.

It's a shame really

[3littlewords]

@movingonup20

For those of us without kids it seems we are being punished and our lives curtailed so that those who were breaking the rules (sixth formers have highest rate currently) can continue to spread it. So I don't think people are going to comply as much - we won't socialise but will go out walking further afield and will see our young adult DD's who live independently but are financially dependent (university) if they want.

Didn't many children do this for months earlier in the year? Let's face it they had no say in the matter whatsoever, they couldn't choose to ignore the rules even if they wanted too. Was it to benefit their health? Was it bollocks it was for everyone else! They did it for months without question, you are being asked to do it for another 4 weeks! I hate this attitude of ive got no young kids i shouldn't have to sacrifice, maybe the children who missed months of school and were kept mainly indoors should have revolted and said I shouldn't have to sacrifice my freedoms for old people dying I've never met. They didn't though did they? They put up shut up and got on with much to the detriment of themselves

[Jeremyironseverything]

It might slow the rate down but numbers are going to increase until it gets to the point they have to close. And then for even longer. Again too little, too late.

I agree this sacrificing everything is pointless as it'll just go on longer with schools still open. Should have made the October break at least two weeks.
At least if they went to blended learning there would be more incentive for people to follow the rules as then schools might be seen as safer. At the moment many people's view is they are sacrificing for no real benefit.

[ThornAmongstRoses]

Not to mention the fact that whilst schools are open a lot of employers are expecting staff to be in the office rather than wfh (I know of several people who in my- and their- opinion could easily wfh but employers claim it's better to be in the office and the workplace is 'Covid safe' so no reason to not be there).

This is what’s happening at my dad’s workplace.

They have also said they aren’t going to bother with furlough because it’s so much hassle working out staff rotas and the all administration that comes with it, (staffing and payroll stuff) that they’ve said it’s not worth it just for 4 weeks, so everyone is just back in work as normal.

[feelingverylazytoday]

@Sonnenscheins

Do people honestly don't understand that we're locking down parts of our society so that hospitals and a can remain open?

This is what France, Germany and many other countries are doing. I thought it was obvious

It would seem many people are either too dim to understand such a simple concept, or are deliberately looking for reasons to break the rules.

[Hesnotlocal]

I have 2 school aged DC and DH is a teacher. We have been limiting our non-school contacts (even when restrictions would have allowed more) to reduce the risk that our DC have to miss school, that their classmates have to isolate, and that DH school are missing a teacher.

I know lots of people who have taken the view that if their DC are mixing with other children at school then it's no different if they also mix with all their friends (in different bubbles etc) outside school, have sleepovers etc. I also know quite a few people without children who claim that it must be fine for them to have weekends together with extended family (across 3 or 4 households) since there are not as many of them as in a school bubble so it must be OK for them to form a sort of bubble too. No undertstanding of the idea that each contact is an additional risk, mixing multiple households leads to exponential infection growth, and the notion that schools are being kept open not because they are risk free but because the benefit for society of keeping children in education outweighs the risk.

Not to mention the fact that whilst schools are open a lot of employers are expecting staff to be in the office rather than wfh (I know of several people who in my- and their- opinion could easily wfh but employers claim it's better to be in the office and the workplace is 'Covid safe' so no reason to not be there).

[Fozzleyplum]

Many people won't try to think critically if the result of doing so does not gratify their own immediate interests.

I think the government is missing a trick by failing to ram home the "risk budget" message. If we are going to keep the R rate down, we need to limit the occasions on which people risk infection. The government has chosen quite correctly to "spend" most of the risk budget on schools and universities, and so there is not enough budget left to allow other non- essential interaction. It's not a difficult concept to grasp, but people don't want to.

[movingonup20]

For those of us without kids it seems we are being punished and our lives curtailed so that those who were breaking the rules (sixth formers have highest rate currently) can continue to spread it. So I don't think people are going to comply as much - we won't socialise but will go out walking further afield and will see our young adult DD's who live independently but are financially dependent (university) if they want.

[Lavenderseas]

Its a shame as we are asking teachers to do somethink high risk on the understanding that all the other risks are reduced.
Some people just seem very all or nothing. If you cant be 100% covid secure then dont bother at all seems to be the view.

Exactly this!

It's not all or nothing. If we all work hard and limit all socialising outside our family, then rates will come down, albeit more slowly.

[ThornAmongstRoses]

What do you want it to be called?

I don’t care what it’s called.

People can call it a lockdown all they like - it doesn’t mean it is one.

Calling a cat, a duck, doesn’t mean it is one.

[NotAKaren]

@Sonnenscheins

Parents need to understand that they need to comply with the rules (NO socialising outside of school) so that schools and hospitals CAN stay open. It's not that difficult to understand surely

I agree but sadly I don't think that lots of people get it. We need to reduce all social contacts to the absolute minimum to get this under control. We are in a global pandemic. Going to work and school is essential but going to the pub, restaurant, gym, play dates, sleepovers etc are not essential. These things will come back but it will take longer than necessary if people do not comply.

[Starlingbird]

Deliaskis “Cases do not spontaneously occur in schools, they arrive from elsewhere. So schools should become safer for everyone if transmission elsewhere in the community is not happening.“

School cases will lessen from what they would have been if there was no lockdown. But cases don’t occur spontaneously in the community either. People in close, indoor, contact largely spread the virus. Therefore, schools will continue to spread the virus within, and then spread out to households and communities.

[Lavenderseas]

It’s ridiculous that it’s even being called a lockdown - because it really isn’t one.

What do you want it to be called?

In Germany it is called a lockdown even though the restrictions are far less restrictive, and people seem to be happy to accept the rules and take some personal responsibility to limit the spread of the virus, SO THTs schools can stay open

[Lavenderseas]

With schools and universities open people will not comply for all the reasons given.
It cannot be a lockdown with them open. It's pointless.

It really makes me sad that some people in the UK regard the sacrifices we make to keep schools open as pointless.

I have family in Germany and they are doing everything to minimise contacts outside of schools, as they understand the importance of keeping schools open. And their new 'lockdown' actually allows groups of 10 from two different households to meet inside).

I think we can do better in the UK.

[ThornAmongstRoses]

With schools and universities open people will not comply for all the reasons given. It cannot be a lockdown with them open. It's pointless.

Yep.

It’s ridiculous that it’s even being called a lockdown - because it really isn’t one.

[LastGoldenDaysOfSummer]

With schools and universities open people will not comply for all the reasons given.

It cannot be a lockdown with them open. It's pointless.

[MillieEpple]

It will effect compliance. Its a shame as we are asking teachers to do somethink high risk on the understanding that all the other risks are reduced.
Some people just seem very all or nothing. If you cant be 100% covid secure then dont bother at all seems to be the view. Its the same with environmental things.

[Sonnenscheins]

Parents need to understand that they need to comply with the rules (NO socialising outside of school) so that schools and hospitals CAN stay open. It's not that difficult to understand surely

[Sonnenscheins]

But isn't the idea that in the scenario you describe, because contacts are reduced elsewhere, the likelihood of the couple of cases arriving in Y12 in the first place is reduced significantly. Nobody is saying there will be no cases at all in schools, but the likelihood of what you describe happening frequently is far less. Cases do not spontaneously occur in schools, they arrive from elsewhere

Yes exactly.

My teen has been alone at home over half term, as he is not allowed to meet his friends inside (and the bad weather didn't really lend itself to meeting outside). He's looking forward to school today!

[Sonnenscheins]

Some of the school mums had secret meet ups even in the real lockdown

You mean they flouted the rules during the last lockdown?

Well then clearly they won't care whatever the rules are!

Unless we send police with guns out

[NannyMcphee39]

Yes OP this is exactly it and no doubt people will continue to do what they were doing before throughout this lockdown. Some of the school mums had secret meet ups even in the real lockdown so I am doubtful that anyone will abide by the rules this time.

I’m in the worst part of the country and school mums continued to travel all over the country during half term. Unfortunately this will continue with no stricter rules in place.

[MadameMinimes]

I agree that this will affect compliance. It shouldn’t though.
The logic of “if I/my children can be in school mixing with hundred of people each day then they can see their auntie/grandpa/friends” just doesn’t hold up. It may not affect the chances of your child/you contracting the virus very much... but the chances of auntie or grandpa contracting the virus goes up loads.
It’s precisely because your children are interacting with loads of other households that you shouldn’t be. As a teacher, I find it frustrating that I can’t mix with anyone (not even the colleague that I share an office space with all week) outside of work but it is what it is. It’s no different to the situation that supermarket workers and nurses and train drivers etc. found themselves in during the first lockdown. I personally think that schools (particularly secondary) should have closed for 2 weeks in October, with an extra week of home learning tacked onto half term, but I don’t agree that they should have to close any time additional lockdown measures are needed.

[Deliaskis]

@Smelliethenelephant

OK, so for all the people who trot out the same lazy arguments, day in day out, about closing everything else to allow schools to stay open, it will not work that way. Let me tell you about our secondary school:
A couple of cases in year 12 - a few kids sent home to isolate. One is presumaly asymptomatic, stays at home but siblings in year 10 and year 8 still attend school. Guess what? Cases in year 10. A few kids in year 10 sent home, one is asymptomatic, sibling in year 9 attends school.... guess what? Do you see what I am getting at here? This is not fantasy this is exactly what has happened in our secondary school. In year 11 alone there have been at least 20 cases, could easily be many, many more by now as school has now stopped informing parents. Transmission is 100% occurring in the classroom and wearing masks in a corridor is just a distraction.

If you have a cluster of cases in your school they are not going to reduce by closing the gym and the hairdressers down the road. They will continue to spread via families and siblings until they run out of hosts. This won't be every school of course, but it will be many. A 2 to 3 week school closure with everything else closed would enable a reset that allows kids to continue full-time in school. Anything else is just nonsense.

But isn't the idea that in the scenario you describe, because contacts are reduced elsewhere, the likelihood of the couple of cases arriving in Y12 in the first place is reduced significantly. Nobody is saying there will be no cases at all in schools, but the likelihood of what you describe happening frequently is far less. Cases do not spontaneously occur in schools, they arrive from elsewhere. So schools should become safer for everyone if transmission elsewhere in the community is not happening. I'm personally sceptical of 4 weeks being long enough to see a meaningful effect of this, but if the measures reduce cases arriving in schools, then surely that is good and worthwhile for everyone, including teachers and pupils, as well as their families.

[PineappleUpsideDownCake]

Tier one and 2 secondary schools in our area closed completely and many others had yesr groups home. My child's primary school had classes sent home.

I am v rule driven and I shielded first time. But even I am thinking if they're playing together at school whats wrong with the playground after.

I thought outdoors was supposed to be v low transmission so a bit disappointed not to be able to meet another family for a walk.

Also noticed BBC has a news article online about manchester and liverpool calling to close schools. They had much higher rates and will know first hand about the effect of schools at the moment.

Also the teaching union....

I'd not be surprised if secondaries close at least.

I wish people had listened to teachers and schools last term and be allowed to open in a more safe manner (smaller groups, ventilation, part online whatever) so closure didnt seem likely.