The effect of schools staying open on people's compliance

[bringbackCabanas]

I DO NOT want schools to close. I'm happy to send my kids in and will continue to do so.

But, the amount of times I hear, or read on here, "well if they sit at school together all day then they can do x y z outside of school" or "my child is mixing with x amount of people five days a week so what's the point of following the rules?"

Basically that if schools are still open then it's not really a "lockdown" and not everyone will take it seriously.

[LastGoldenDaysOfSummer]

@Sonnenscheins

How are other countries managing to keep them open?

Germany? France? Switzerland? Sweden? Ireland?

They're all managing to keep schools open.

Shouldn't we try a little harder?

Or maybe adopt the same safety precautions that they have? Masks, social distancing, part time learning.

You aren't comparing like with like but Is suspect you know that.

[Sonnenscheins]

How are other countries managing to keep them open?

Germany? France? Switzerland? Sweden? Ireland?

They're all managing to keep schools open.

Shouldn't we try a little harder?

[WanderingMilly]

I also work in a school and yes, as others have said, the transmission rate is rising....and this is amongst young children. The myth that small children don't pass the virus on is rubbish, they do (and I caught it from a child just before the last lockdown).
Small children may not suffer so much and many do not show symptoms, but they certainly pass the virus on.

Schools SHOULD BE SHUT. Yes, it's dreadful for education, for the children, for families trying to work, for exams.... But this is still a pandemic and if it's got so bad that another lockdown is necessary, then schools need to shut to make it worthwhile.

Some are arguing we should sacrifice everything just to keep schools open; I would argue, why are we sacrificing businesses, the country and the whole of the economy to keep schools open? The children will catch up in the future, there are many other ways of learning including a proper online service.

In addition, yes, I do feel why should I be following the rules to the letter when I'm stuck in a school with no PPE, no social distancing (small children find it too difficult) and teachers crammed into a small room all day with kids......who are then going to go home and pass the viruses that they have picked up in school, on to their families.

So I can't even visit my own family, even outside, but I can sit through that every day? Bloody bonkers......

[ThornAmongstRoses]

But I also believe lockdown won’t be no where near enough effective with them open. Hundreds of thousands of kids out on public transport filling up trains and buses. Mixing in school then taking it home to their families.

100% yes.

I will follow the rules but do I think these 4 weeks are going to change anything? Not at all.

I’m hoping though that I will be back here in 4 weeks eating some humble pie

[Waxonwaxoff0]

I'm more likely to comply with the rules as school staying open is my number one personal priority.

[Peppafrig]

I do see the point in a lockdown with schools open. But I also believe lockdown won’t be no where near enough effective with them open . Hundreds of thousands of kids out on public transport filling up trains and buses. Mixing in school then taking it home to their families.

[TheKeatingFive]

I'd happily sacrifice for it (and will do anyway but not happily) if I thought it would have any actual effect.

The indications from other countries is that it will. Based on actual data.

I don’t understand why people who have no specific knowledge on this topic have unilaterally decided it won’t work. They don’t have the slightest clue and should be looking to emerging data to inform their decision.

[ThornAmongstRoses]

It’s the other group (maybe the more realistic group) are the ones who won’t comply with the rules whilst childcare and all schools and universities are open.

How about they give it a try first?

We all know that even if this 4 week “lockdown” does reduce infection rates, as soon as the restrictions are lifted the infections rate will be right back where they are now.

That’s why people won’t comply, because they know these 4 weeks aren’t going to achieve anything in the long term.

[Jeremyironseverything]

@ThornAmongstRoses

At the moment many people's view is they are sacrificing for no real benefit.

No benefit of education the next generation?

I think people’s view is that regardless of ways people are being restricted, whilst childcare and education facilities remain open then it’s very unlikely to have any real impact on the infection rates.

So some people may think what’s the point of them making sacrifices when those sacrifices won’t make any difference to what will be the end result anyway.

I think people are really, really hoping that the current measures are going to have a huge impact on numbers, but many people think it’s not going to make any difference at all - especially in just four weeks.

Exactly.

I see the importance of education. I'd happily sacrifice for it (and will do anyway but not happily) if I thought it would have any actual effect.

I work in a school. I know how covid unsafe they are. Blended learning would at least be seen as making the sacrifice worthy because then it might, I repeat might, have an impact on the numbers. Keeping 30 kids, staff in tiny cramped rooms, sharing a small number of toilets etc will have little impact. We are far too high up on that exponential curve now.

[Foobydoo]

@Smelliethenelephant

OK, so for all the people who trot out the same lazy arguments, day in day out, about closing everything else to allow schools to stay open, it will not work that way. Let me tell you about our secondary school:
A couple of cases in year 12 - a few kids sent home to isolate. One is presumaly asymptomatic, stays at home but siblings in year 10 and year 8 still attend school. Guess what? Cases in year 10. A few kids in year 10 sent home, one is asymptomatic, sibling in year 9 attends school.... guess what? Do you see what I am getting at here? This is not fantasy this is exactly what has happened in our secondary school. In year 11 alone there have been at least 20 cases, could easily be many, many more by now as school has now stopped informing parents. Transmission is 100% occurring in the classroom and wearing masks in a corridor is just a distraction.

If you have a cluster of cases in your school they are not going to reduce by closing the gym and the hairdressers down the road. They will continue to spread via families and siblings until they run out of hosts. This won't be every school of course, but it will be many. A 2 to 3 week school closure with everything else closed would enable a reset that allows kids to continue full-time in school. Anything else is just nonsense.

Yes this, this is what is happening.
I wonder if the posters who do not see this are in tier one areas.
The schools in my tier 3 area have been doing the covid hoaky coaky since mid September and it feels a bit like playing Russian roulette for those of us that are clinically vulnerable.
Covid patients who are struggling to breath are already being turned away from the hospitals near me unless they are turning blue.

[Sonnenscheins]

It’s the other group (maybe the more realistic group) are the ones who won’t comply with the rules whilst childcare and all schools and universities are open.

How about they give it a try first?

Why are the Irish, Germans, Swiss, French etc all trying to keep schools open?

[LottieDot]

From people I know/things on Facebook, a lot of the lack of compliance is due to people thinking the numbers won't come down enough whilst schools stay open, and therefore we're doing this "for nothing".

Personally, I think if they'd brought the lockdown forward by a few weeks and closed the schools for 2 weeks over half term with them going back half way through lockdown then people I know would have taken it a lot more seriously. Even though kids would be mixing, I guess the thought being that they wouldn't have been anyway for 2 weeks prior.

Its just a bit frustrating to see people say "well its not going to work so I'm not going to even try".

[3littlewords]

@ThornAmongstRoses

No one wants to comply anymore, so as soon as 1 person says fuck it im not doing it, someone else does the same and someone else and someone else........

People who don’t comply are those who wouldn’t comply anyway, not ones who don’t comply just because someone else isn’t.

I stick to the rules as best as I can, and I wouldn’t stop doing it just because my neighbour might choose not to.

people feel justified in their decisions not to comply if others aren't either.

I dont want to stick to the rules, who does? ,but I will

[RedToothBrush]

If its not 'well they see each other in school' it'd probably be some other bullshit excuse anyway.

[ThornAmongstRoses]

”I think people are really, really hoping that the current measures are going to have a huge impact on number”

Hoping isn't enough.

They need to act and follow the rules.

It’s the hopeful people who are following the rules.

It’s the other group (maybe the more realistic group) are the ones who won’t comply with the rules whilst childcare and all schools and universities are open.

[RedToothBrush]

@WhoWants2Know

It's not easy to explain to a kid why they can't hang out at the park with the same people they have spent the day with at school.

No its easy. Its just that people are lazy and don't want to.

Every additional contact is a new opportunity that you wouldn't otherwise have to get 'tagged' or caught by the virus.

Usually if you see kids outside school their parent is there so thats an additional contact you could catch the virus from.

Not hard.

But then there are far too many parents hard of thinking who want to ignore the rules anyway so just use the kids as an excuse to get what they want.

[TheKeatingFive]

whilst childcare and education facilities remain open then it’s very unlikely to have any real impact on the infection rates.

They’d do well to look at what’s happening with their nearest neighbours, ROI, where schools/childcare have remained open but cases are decreasing significantly.

covid19ireland-geohive.hub.arcgis.com/

A nice curve on here.

[Sonnenscheins]

No one wants to comply anymore, so as soon as 1 person says fuck it im not doing it, someone else does the same and someone else and someone else........

Well then we might as well have no lockdown at all. At least our economy will recover quicker.

And our children can stay in education - they're not much affected by the virus anyway!

[ThornAmongstRoses]

No one wants to comply anymore, so as soon as 1 person says fuck it im not doing it, someone else does the same and someone else and someone else........

People who don’t comply are those who wouldn’t comply anyway, not ones who don’t comply just because someone else isn’t.

I stick to the rules as best as I can, and I wouldn’t stop doing it just because my neighbour might choose not to.

[Sonnenscheins]

I think people are really, really hoping that the current measures are going to have a huge impact on numbers

Hoping isn't enough.

They need to act and follow the rules.

[3littlewords]

@Sausage1989

No government in this land will tell me who i can and cannot see!

And here lies the problem ladies and gentlemen!

No one wants to comply anymore, so as soon as 1 person says fuck it im not doing it, someone else does the same and someone else and someone else........

[TheTurnOfTheScrew]

IME, having been in enhanced lockdown since August, there is a lot of selective application of "the rules". People are upset at being told that they must go to work but not do any of the things that make life pleasurable, and either do not understand, or choose not to, the concept of cumulative risk.

There has been lots of talk of "well, I mix with X many people at work/school so seeing family won't make any difference".
and misapplying the idea of "bubbles" when they're not needed for childcare or support of a single person household. One colleague told me about how strictly she'd adhering to the rules, mentioning three "bubbles" she's in. I know Cummings is old news, and MNers hate him being dragged up, but the Government being forced to peddle the line that we can use our common sense really seems to have been disastrous.

[ThornAmongstRoses]

At the moment many people's view is they are sacrificing for no real benefit.

No benefit of education the next generation?

I think people’s view is that regardless of ways people are being restricted, whilst childcare and education facilities remain open then it’s very unlikely to have any real impact on the infection rates.

So some people may think what’s the point of them making sacrifices when those sacrifices won’t make any difference to what will be the end result anyway.

I think people are really, really hoping that the current measures are going to have a huge impact on numbers, but many people think it’s not going to make any difference at all - especially in just four weeks.

[Sausage1989]

No government in this land will tell me who i can and cannot see!

[Sonnenscheins]

At the moment many people's view is they are sacrificing for no real benefit.

No benefit of education the next generation?


See, I think that is not the view in countries like Switzerland or Germany.

I hope the UK Government sees the importance of keeping schools open at all costs!