Why are people so determined that the tiers won't work?

[RunBackwards]

Or are pointless? I agree lots of mistakes have been in the handling of this whole thing and I'm certainly no Tory but hindsight is a wonderful thing.

We're in a High Alert Area, which means we carry on as normal, except wfh where possible and inky mix household outdoors, limited tonal total of six people. Schools remain open.

This has been explained by our LA (if anyone's listening) as being because:

-The two big risks are work and mixing indoors
-Yes, people who need to go to work are at risk
-Yes, schools are a risk

However, every contact we can remove reduces the spread, so if we take these measures the spread will be reduced and we can keep schools and essential services open.

People here seem determined that because there's still some risk (how were we ever going to eliminate it competely) every and all other measure is pointless while schools and businesses are open.

What is certian is that if people don't comply, they won't work.

[Bollss]

We've been in extra measures (same as tier 2) since July and cases have continued to rise. I can't see what closing pubs is going to do help this in all honesty. I mean I hope it does work otherwise their sacrifice is for fuck all but.. I don't have much hope.

[SqidgeBum]

@helpfulperson do you have any actual evidence to prove that? Or is that just you repeating what the government have been telling us? Because they dont seem to be producing evidence either.

[Orcus]

@Orangeblossom7777

What I don't understand is why areas struggling want a country wide lockdown rather than further measures in their own area. For example

www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/30/health-chief-in-englands-worst-hit-covid-area-calls-for-immediate-lockdown

Should they not be focusing their attention on their area perhaps instead

There's no evidence that local lockdowns work, though. SAGE recommended a new national one.

Now there are obviously arguments about the risks and benefits to that: it's possible to understand that there isn't any real expert support for the Tier 3 model whilst also thinking a national lockdown is too high a price to pay for what we'd get out of it. But actually, if you're in a seriously affected area and your particular priority is keeping cases down, it's logical to advocate for a national lockdown. The arguments against that are economic and about the risk benefit ratio, not because people should be focusing on their own areas instead. That'll do fuck all.

[annabel85]

The restrictions aren't enforced so people will ignore them. They're also useless. Tier 3 pubs are shut but you can still go Wetherspoons and all.the chain places as long as you buy food for the table.

[NoSquirrels]

It spreads in pubs. But pubs HAVE to abide by safety procedures, cleaning etc and implement distancing and take contact details.

It spreads in homes. Where none of the above apply and where people WILL gather if all other avenues for socialising are closed.

It doesn’t help anyone feel better if they already rarely socialise anywhere and just want to meet with their family once a week without worrying.

I’ve no idea what the answer is. Lockdown at least felt purposeful, everyone was in it together. This feels half-hearted and confusing and hard to take seriously. But lockdown will fuck so many businesses, there’s no getting around that.

We need to keep taking personal responsibility and hope for a vaccine. That’s it.

[Lily193]

Seems to be conflicting evidence over Liverpool with media reporting a fall in rates here and on the local news yesterday:
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8892493/Tier-3-bringing-R-rate-North-West-cases-falling-locked-Liverpool.html

I would prefer local lockdowns to a national lockdown.

[SproutMuncher]

@helpfulperson

Just because the number of cases has gone up doesnt mean a lock down isn't working. Had it not been in place the numbers would have been much higher.

That’s probably true but is it not the case we need infections to come down, if as we are being told the NHS is about to be overwhelmed in some areas?

[Orcus]

Ours in GM are increasing, and being under local restrictions since the start of August hasn't prevented that.

[islockdownoveryet]

They will only work if people comply and they won't .
Schools , university they mix in and out of school . I'm supportive of schools staying home as long as possible but teens don't observe distancing out of school .
All the blame is at pubs but they are far safer than supermarkets.
Depending on which shop you go to some great but many not bothered about distancing so the customers aren't .
I had to tell someone off yesterday for twice pushing past me and someone else stood right behind me in the queue .
I've been in local lockdown since early August no mixing households have the cases gone down no they haven't.

[Orangeblossom7777]

It's totally contradictory to not want more restorations and say it 'doesn't work' locally at the same time as calling for everywhere else to have more restrictions. It's madness.

[unmarkedbythat]

Having lived in an area that was de facto in tier 2 for months and seen it not work to the extent that we are now in tier 3, why would I think it would work?

[Orcus]

@Orangeblossom7777

It's totally contradictory to not want more restorations and say it 'doesn't work' locally at the same time as calling for everywhere else to have more restrictions. It's madness.

I think the point is that some people in Tier 3 areas are calling for a full national lockdown for everyone, rather than us not having any restrictions but everywhere else having them. The latter would obviously be batshit.

[StarCat2020]

I still cannot get over adults on TV moaning that current rules are "unfair" and that they will not comply as "they are being punished".

The whole bloody situation is unfair but the rules are not there to punish people.

[ChristmasinJune]

When Liverpool went into local lockdown on the 1st of october the cases were at 238 per 100k. Now, on the 30th of October, it's at 430 per 100k.

Liverpool went into Tier 3 on 14th Oct when the cases were 674 per 100,000.

Two weeks later they're now at 430 per 100,000.

So the increased measures do appear to be having an impact on cases.

It often takes a couple of weeks to see the impact of any new measures.

[Bollss]

@StarCat2020

I still cannot get over adults on TV moaning that current rules are "unfair" and that they will not comply as "they are being punished".

The whole bloody situation is unfair but the rules are not there to punish people.

Can you not understand how it feels like a punishment though?

The tone has been very "you've been bad extra restrictions for you"

I haven't felt for one second "safe" or "protected" by the government.

[Badbadbunny]

@StarCat2020

I still cannot get over adults on TV moaning that current rules are "unfair" and that they will not comply as "they are being punished".

The whole bloody situation is unfair but the rules are not there to punish people.

I think that's the problem now. People have lost sight of the dangers of Covid and think that by breaking the restrictions, all they're doing is sticking two fingers up at Boris/Cummings. They've become blind to the risks they're taking to themselves and others around them. Perhaps we do need huge numbers of deaths, hospital closures, etc., and their friends/relatives dying before they finally realise that the precautions are against Covid, not against Boris etc!

[PronounssheRa]

Infection rates are falling in the Merseyside region which has been in tier 3 for just over 2 weeks.

Manchester delayed going into tier 3 which is why I think they haven't seen numbers come down yet.

The next couple of weeks figures will tell us more

[StarCat2020]

@TrustTheGeneGenie & @Badbadbunny
Thanks for your replies and I can see it from both sides.

Trust me, splinter bum

[Orcus]

Interestingly parts of GM were dropping a few days ago. They're not now, which doesn't surprise me given the number of people who took one last opportunity to go out on the piss when it became clear that Tier 3 would be imposed by central government.

[ChristmasinJune]

@Orcus

Interestingly parts of GM were dropping a few days ago. They're not now, which doesn't surprise me given the number of people who took one last opportunity to go out on the piss when it became clear that Tier 3 would be imposed by central government.

I wonder if being forced to go into tier 3 v going willingly or even asking to be out there will have an impact on how compliant people are? The additional issue with greater Manchester is that they've been in some form of local lockdown for months without seeing results. So people are massively frustrated and disillusioned which I'd imagine would lead to low compliance.

[Legooo]

I don’t ‘believe’ they are working...because with my own eyes I can SEE that they aren’t working.

Everyone knows that they won’t while schools stay open, so they aren’t bothering until that happens.

[FredtheFerret]

Tiers won't work as long as schools are open. It's bloody pointless shutting a pub - but keeping a school of 2,000 students open, frankly.

They are mixing freely with each other - and staff. They have siblings at a mix of primary schools. They probably have siblings at different secondary schools. And they get on buses with kids from other schools too, generally.

I'm not necessarily advocating closing schools and workplaces. But I do feel that as long as they are open then any 'tier' system is doomed to fail.

[IrkedEssex]

"Can you not understand how it feels like a punishment though?

The tone has been very "you've been bad extra restrictions for you"

I haven't felt for one second "safe" or "protected" by the government."

@TrustTheGeneGenie - yes. I totally get it.

I'm on the other side of the coin. We have worked very hard (successfully) in my area to keep numbers down. I am not saying you haven't - I'm sure it's a matter of demographics. But our hard work has been ignored and our council dragged us into Tier 2 anyway. We could be doing our bit for the economy but instead our council has grabbed the money available for Tier 2. It annoys me hugely, because I actually support the "whack-a-mole" approach if used over small areas that need it at any particular time.

[islockdownoveryet]

@FredtheFerret

Tiers won't work as long as schools are open. It's bloody pointless shutting a pub - but keeping a school of 2,000 students open, frankly.

They are mixing freely with each other - and staff. They have siblings at a mix of primary schools. They probably have siblings at different secondary schools. And they get on buses with kids from other schools too, generally.

I'm not necessarily advocating closing schools and workplaces. But I do feel that as long as they are open then any 'tier' system is doomed to fail.

I agree ,
I don't know what the answer is but closing down whole industry's to keep schools open is a bit like stopping a leak with tissue paper.

[lljkk]

I support the Tier system. Don't impose drastic measures that throttle economy unless locally indicated, and as last resort. University students to slight extent but Meat packing factories to great extent (not schools) are the hotspots in my county, btw.

Is all painful situation, tbf.