How many cases before a school shuts?

[Newstart20]

Just as the title says really, how many cases within a school before the whole school needs to shut? Or does it really only have to be the bubbles?

[notevenat20]

Really our main focus should be on how we can fully open the NHS!

[MrsHerculePoirot]

@Friendsoftheearth

Well apart from all those that have it and cause bubbles, parts of bubbles to shut/isolate of course.. and all the parents, grandparents etc. they may live with..

Children that live with elderly grandparents are few and far between, and always have the option of living with other relatives OR home schooling. We can't keep millions of children at home for such tiny percentage of children living with the elderly! Most children of the vulnerable are already at home. So what we have left is the majority - which is normal families with parents that are extremely low risk!

So there is no need whatsoever to close schools, we would be better focusing on how to support the old and the vulnerable.

What do you mean they have the 'option' of living with other relatives?!?! The school I teach in has a relatively high proportion of students on FSM. I can assure you they are not living in cramped living conditions out of any kind of choice and certainly don't have a choice of where to live.

'Most of the vulnerable are already at home' - again, I don't know what you mean by this. All vulnerable teachers and students are in school? If students are not we have been told to issue fines. Government directive.

Again to be clear NO-ONE IS SUGGESTING WE CLOSE SCHOOLS. At all. I have yet to see one post where that is suggested. We are asking that schools are made SAFER in order that we can KEEP THEM OPEN FOR LONGER and to better protect everyone within those school communities/households.

I know that studies show that children appear to transmit less the younger they are. That doesn't however help those of us teaching in secondary schools and sixth forms...

[notevenat20]

That doesn't however help those of us teaching in secondary schools and sixth forms.

Sixth formers should either wear masks or keep their distance from the teacher if there not too many in a class, in my opinion.

[notevenat20]

I tutor a child at a private secondary school where currently year 10 is the only year left actually in school.

That is hilarious and really shows that the current system of sending the whole year home has to change.

[Taikoo]

Stay open until every single teacher in the school is dead, I would have thought.

[Newnamenewopenme]

Children that live with elderly grandparents are few and far between, and always have the option of living with other relatives OR home schooling

Not in my experience. We lived with my elderly aunt when I was younger as we made homeless and the area the school where I teach is highly deprived with a large amount living just with grandparents or whole families in houses. We have an elderly lady with 3 non sibling foster children in different year groups, should she up route the children she has housed for up to 10 years and ruin their routine for her own health?

I think there’s a lot of people thinking everything’s fine because the area they live is fine.

[Friendsoftheearth]

Unless you are prepared to wear full PPE then I don't see how it will help, I don't think masks do very much in reality, much of these measures are in place to make us feel safer - in reality they are unlikely to do much if you are very close to someone with covid. That is the case with being close to anyone in any setting.

In secondary schools you at least have the option of standing away from students, and keeping a distance - which is more than can be said for nursery and primary settings. There is not the need to hold, pick up or care for children at very close range.

[Newnamenewopenme]

Sixth formers should either wear masks or keep their distance from the teacher if there not too many in a class, in my opinion.

Mine do, but they sit on the same desks as the 11-16year olds I’ve taught the rest of the day. They are wiped down between lessons but as we’ve removed all breaks except lunch we only have as long as it takes the next class to arrive to do this. Can’t leave kids on the corridor because bubbles will mix so it’s not reliable.

Not all 6 form classes are tiny either. I only have 12 but it isn’t the case across school, so some have no option but to be near the teacher.

[ForthPlace]

Schools won't shut, everything else might have to in the end - but not schools because this does not affect young people op. Additionally we need to give our children an education, for the sake of the future.

I do hope they will take out vulnerable teachers though, if things get really bad. Anyone with severe underlying health conditions should be offered the choice of wfh in some capacity

That doesn't make any sense. Schools will shut if there are no key adults (illness, isolation), no adults - no school.
Taking out vulnerable teachers will mean far less adults...and more of a risk of school closures. In fact, I suspect that's one of the reasons there is no guidance around the vulnerable...affects schools too much.

[BlusteryShowers]

I think a school would only close If there were not enough staff to safely supervise (not necessarily teach) the children. Even if they can cover classes with support staff; they would do that rather than close.

The school I work at has had some sixth formers test positive and theyve instructed classmates to isolate, but not the whole year group. Around 6% of Y7-13 are currently self isolating and are having to be set online work. I'm not sure how many staff are isolating at the moment.

[Friendsoftheearth]

I don't think we will 'run' out of staff for I just don't accept the reality of that. Winters are always full of cold and flu, and we manage. Maybe class sizes will have to expand, and all staff getting involved inc the head, but I don't think it will be necessary to actually close the school altogether.

[MrsHerculePoirot]

@notevenat20

That doesn't however help those of us teaching in secondary schools and sixth forms.

Sixth formers should either wear masks or keep their distance from the teacher if there not too many in a class, in my opinion.

Erm.... isn't that what we teachers are asking for?! I would much prefer it if my classes were wearing masks. I teach a sixth form class of 18. There isn't a spare desk in the room. The room isn't very big. I have four very small windows that open. Of course I stay at the front of the room, in my taped our zone. However there are still 19 of us in one room with very little ventilation. Currently though schools are not allowed to request students wear masks in any lesson...

This is exactly the sort of thing we are saying could change...

[HerdyGerdy]

@Friendsoftheearth

I don't think we will 'run' out of staff for I just don't accept the reality of that. Winters are always full of cold and flu, and we manage. Maybe class sizes will have to expand, and all staff getting involved inc the head, but I don't think it will be necessary to actually close the school altogether.

Yep. Because content, skills and curriculum don’t matter. Teachers actually teaching doesn’t matter. Let’s just keep students in school. Screw actually ‘learning’ anything which cannot be done with sixty students in a hall with a deputy head. I’m an English specialist and one of the only two full timers in my dept. I’m responsible for curriculum, literacy support and progress at KS3. Think a cover teacher can manage all that...?

[Friendsoftheearth]

mrs You do know masks are largely ineffective though for too many reasons to list here - but see the link, they just give the impression that something is being done.

www.rcreader.com/commentary/masks-dont-work-covid-a-review-of-science-relevant-to-covide-19-social-policy

[Friendsoftheearth]

I’m responsible for curriculum, literacy support and progress at KS3. Think a cover teacher can manage all that...?

In the short term, yes of course.

[MrsHerculePoirot]

"In secondary schools you at least have the option of standing away from students, and keeping a distance - which is more than can be said for nursery and primary settings. There is not the need to hold, pick up or care for children at very close range."

In some classrooms there physically isn't enough classroom space to be 2m from the front row. Even if you squash yourself up against the front wall. Class sizes have steadily increased due to budget cuts over the years in my experience.

Seeing as transmission is thought to be airborne - I am therefore in a small room, with few windows that open (especially if not in a ground floor room) with 32 students facing me directly and sitting shoulder to shoulder with each other. I can stay at the front, but I am not always 2m away and I have 30 people breathing towards me in a fairly small, poorly ventilated room.

"I don't think masks do very much in reality" well I think I'll listen to the scientific experts on that one, who seem to think they do help when inside in poorly ventilated spaces. Why on earth are they asking everyone to wear them in shops and public transport etc. and in many places around the world if they don't help?

Re running out of staff - that is definitely going to happen in some schools. Touch wood we haven't got many staff out, but a nearby school only needs one more staff member to be off and they will have to start shutting year groups as they won't have enough members of staff to safely run the school. The problem is usually teachers often go in when unwell - we aren't allowed to do that now. If someone has to self-isolate for 2 weeks you can teach remotely by being streamed in but you still need a physical person in the classroom. There is no money for supply Of course staffing is going to be a big issue compared to normal times.

[HerdyGerdy]

@Friendsoftheearth

I’m responsible for curriculum, literacy support and progress at KS3. Think a cover teacher can manage all that...?

In the short term, yes of course.

No they can’t. You also clearly don’t know what is involved in those tasks to make that qualification.
Most cover staff don’t even mark let alone plan lessons. You’re naive and rude in your ignorance. If you value education, you need to value the specialists providing it.

[MrsHerculePoirot]

[quote Friendsoftheearth]mrs You do know masks are largely ineffective though for too many reasons to list here - but see the link, they just give the impression that something is being done.

www.rcreader.com/commentary/masks-dont-work-covid-a-review-of-science-relevant-to-covide-19-social-policy[/quote]
Clearly not a view shared by the wider scientific community though as everyone across the world is generally doing it...

"I’m responsible for curriculum, literacy support and progress at KS3. Think a cover teacher can manage all that...?

In the short term, yes of course."

Tbh this comment really does show that you don't really understand how schools work at all either.

It would really make my day if all these armchair experts on schools came and worked in a school and plugged the teacher shortages for half a term.

[Friendsoftheearth]

In a week or two you can relax at home, so it isn't so bad.

[HerdyGerdy]

Think @Friendsoftheearth needs ignoring.

We’ve forgotten the maxim that you shouldn’t fight a pig - you both get dirty and the pig enjoys it. They’re clearly just here to bait.

[MrsHerculePoirot]

Agreed @HerdyGerdy

[HildegardVonBingen]

Our school shut as 2/3rds of the staff team tested positive for COVID-19, and the head (one of the affected staff) advised that there were not enough adults for the school to open safely. Luckily no-one has required hospital and all but one are back teaching.

The outbreak started with the TA in my daughter's class, swiftly followed by the class teacher, so for the first few days it was just her year groups that wasn't in.

As a spot of anecdata, very, very few of the children tested positive - just one in my DC's class and only a couple more in the school.

[ForthPlace]

don't think we will 'run' out of staff for I just don't accept the reality of that. Winters are always full of cold and flu, and we manage. Maybe class sizes will have to expand, and all staff getting involved inc the head, but I don't think it will be necessary to actually close the school altogether

It's happening now. I have schools with not enough staff to open and schools closed because key safeguarding staff are isolating.

[Fossie]

I expect we will get to that point soon (school closing). Two year groups out. Two staff positive. More staff needing to isolate. Cover is ridiculous. It won’t be long.