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Covid

Why wouldn't people cooperate with track and trace?

113 replies

MRex · 24/06/2020 19:07

Reports seem to suggest 1 in 4 people won't cooperate with track and trace. Why would that be?

I can understand perhaps a few contacts being hidden and contacted privately in some cases. Or your occasional black market worker / drug dealer / etc, maybe contacting people privately or not. But 1 in 4 is loads. Any ideas?

OP posts:
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jasjas1973 · 26/06/2020 20:29

Because the government don't follow their own guidelines, why should anyone else

I just can’t understand the thinking behind this comment. Because someone doesn’t follow the guidelines you wouldn’t either even if meant putting your life, your family and friends lives in danger? We can all make our own decisions on what is the right thing to do surely?

What is the right thing to do though?

Follow my instincts and go to that party down the road? go to a packed beach? go to my 2nd home? (if i had one) visit my parents (5 hours away) for childcare?

If those leading us flout the rules or condone those who do, then what exactly are the rules?

Leadership is about more than being popular.

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HeIenaDove · 26/06/2020 20:09

www.theguardian.com/global-development/2020/jun/26/moj-failed-to-investigate-potential-covid-19-cluster-among-cleaners?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

MoJ failed to investigate potential Covid-19 cluster among cleaners
Cleaner was sacked while isolating with coronavirus symptoms as others fell ill

Emanuel Gomes died just hours after his cleaning shift. Why was he working?
Coronavirus – latest updates
See all our coronavirus coverage

The Ministry of Justice (MoJ) and cleaning firm OCS have been accused of ignoring pleas to investigate a potential coronavirus outbreak among workers at the department after at four cleaners say they fell sick with suspected symptoms.

The MoJ cleaning team, employed by cleaning firm OCS and sub-contractor PRS, were told at the start of lockdown that they were essential workers and were to continue to commute into central London.

Members of that team have said at the height of the pandemic, as their colleagues fell sick around them, they were afraid they were at risk of catching the virus but had felt under pressure to keep working in “near empty” offices because of a lack of full sick pay. Instead cleaners who were sick and had to self-isolate were paid statutory sick pay of £95.85 a week.

One man working as a cleaner at the MoJ was also sacked by text at the height of the pandemic after self-isolating with severe suspected symptoms of what he believed to be Covid-19

In May, the Guardian reported that Emanuel Gomes, a worker on the MoJ cleaning team, fell ill and died hours after his shift. There is no evidence Gomes had Covid-19 and the post mortem result gives hypertensive heart disease as the probable cause of death.

Gomes’s union, United Voices of the World (UWV), and his family say that he continued working whilst unwell because he didn’t feel able to call in sick. On the day he died, his colleague said he was so feverish and unwell “he didn’t know where he was.”

“Emanuel went to work feeling sick – but he knew that if he didn’t work … he would get to the end of the month and wouldn’t have enough money,” his brother Leao Gomes told the Guardian.

UVW say in the same time period that Gomes died, at least four members of the same cleaning team were unwell with suspected Covid-19 symptoms.

At the end of April UVW repeatedly raised concerns over workers’ safety, lack of PPE and failure to promise full sick pay to people who might need to self-isolate.

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The Guardian has seen a series of emails sent between 23 and 30 April in which the union asks the MoJ and cleaning agency OCS to suspend cleaning services to protect workers from a “serious and imminent danger of catching and spreading coronavirus”



On 29 April, just days after Gomes died, the union warned OCS and the MoJ that people were working with suspected Covid-19 symptoms. The union gave the Guardian the names of five people who were sick, including Gomes. No investigation was ever carried out into whether an outbreak was linked to the team.

In a statement to the Guardian, OCS said it did not need to report Covid-19 cases to any public health bodies at the time and had fully complied with Public Health England guidelines.

The MoJ strongly denies there was an outbreak connected to their offices, saying: “It’s simply untrue to suggest there has been an outbreak linked to our headquarters.”


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In April, testing was not widely available for people who were not hospitalised with Covid-19. OCS told the Guardian that they did not need to report Covid-19 cases to any public health bodies at the time and had followed public health guidelines and asked individuals with symptoms to self-isolate.

Yet UVW say their members did not feel they could stay at home if they were experiencing symptoms.
One member of the team, who asked to be referred to as Rodrigo, said that he was fired by text while self-isolating at home.

“I was coughing, had aching bones and lost my appetite, it was really horrible, I have never felt that kind of pain in my body before,” he said.

“I went into work anyway but a supervisor told me to go home. I asked about my pay and he said he would sort it, just go home.”

Instead, on 29 April Rodrigo was sent a text from an agency called PRS, a sub-contracting firm who had employed him on behalf of OCS, telling him not to return to the office.

“I didn’t get sick pay, I wasn’t paid either by PRS or OCS and they both stopped replying to my messages. I felt really sad being thrown out of work with absolutely nothing, I felt the walls closing in on me.”

PRS told the Guardian that they were instructed by OCS to remove Rodrigo from the MoJ team. It said the failure to pay Rodrigo sick pay was an error and was in the process of being rectified.

OCS has confirmed that Rodrigo was working on their cleaning team at the MoJ, but that as he was employed by PRS they couldn’t comment on any text message sent by the agency. It also said the termination of Rodrigo’s employment was not linked to him being away from work while self-isolating.
At the time, there was no widespread testing and no obligation to report coronavirus cases to any public health body. But UVW says much more should have been done to protect them.

Molly de Dios Fisher, of UVW, said the fear felt by the cleaners is an indictment of working practices at OCS and the MoJ.

“At at the height of the pandemic workers were being sent to clean empty government departments, told they were essential workers but were then paid below the London Living Wage and were afraid of going off sick because of the very low rates of statutory sick pay.”

OCS said: “As with every other business across the UK, we have had colleagues in different parts of our business off sick with Covid-19 symptoms, and we have fully complied with Public Health England guidelines in managing the situation. Employees have been instructed to self-isolate for 14 days and not return to work.

“We also have no evidence to suggest that OCS has been adversely impacted more than any other business, or that the situation at Petty France [the London street on which the MoJ is situated] has been disproportionate to what has been happening in the wider UK population.”

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The MoJ said in a statement: “We have been working closely with our contractors to make sure all staff have the appropriate safety equipment, in line with Public Health England guidance.

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ListeningQuietly · 26/06/2020 16:54

Local Authority Public Health teams
already employ Track and TRace teams
who could have made it work

but the UK Government specifically and deliberately excluded them

instead handing contracts to useless companies like Serco and Capita and Deloitte

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Ilovemypantry · 26/06/2020 15:41

@ohthegoats

Because the government don't follow their own guidelines, why should anyone else.

I just can’t understand the thinking behind this comment. Because someone doesn’t follow the guidelines you wouldn’t either even if meant putting your life, your family and friends lives in danger? We can all make our own decisions on what is the right thing to do surely?
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Xenia · 26/06/2020 11:52

We have had notifiable diseases for a long time eg my son despite the MMR caught mumps at university (1 in 9 chance of getting it if you had hte MMR) presumably because other parents decided not to bother with MMR. Anyway that was notifiable and his doctor made sure the details were taken.

The list is quite interesting of which ones are notifable
Diseases notifiable to local authority proper officers under the Health Protection (Notification) Regulations 2010:

Acute encephalitis
Acute infectious hepatitis
Acute meningitis
Acute poliomyelitis
Anthrax
Botulism
Brucellosis
Cholera
COVID-19
Diphtheria
Enteric fever (typhoid or paratyphoid fever)
Food poisoning
Haemolytic uraemic syndrome (HUS)
Infectious bloody diarrhoea
Invasive group A streptococcal disease
Legionnaires’ disease
Leprosy
Malaria
Measles
Meningococcal septicaemia
Mumps
Plague
Rabies
Rubella
Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome (SARS)
Scarlet fever
Smallpox
Tetanus
Tuberculosis
Typhus
Viral haemorrhagic fever (VHF)
Whooping cough
Yellow fever

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ListeningQuietly · 26/06/2020 10:54

Track and trace has worked REALLY WELL
in Taiwan
in Singapore
in South Korea (all of them learned the system during SARS)
in UAE
and Gulf states (because of MERS)
in Germany
and Denmark
and Luxembourg (because they started early, did it thoroughly and were transparent)

but the UK did not even check people coming into the country from hotspots
until ....
not yet actually

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itsgettingweird · 26/06/2020 09:52
  • I don’t quite understand the Track and Trace.

    Surely if you know you feel unwell and think you have Coronavirus you would automatically contact the people you have been in contact with recently. Why do you need to provide a tracer with phone numbers of your friends/family for them to make contact with them?*
    Or am I missing something?
    Under the new relaxations on 4th July, things could get very complicated and track/trace may well be required. You can go and stay with family on Monday, that same family could go to a birthday party on Tuesday, their birthday party hosts could have lunch at a cafe on Wednesday then go visit the in laws on Wednesday... If you test positive later that week, how are you going to keep track of all those connected interactions? Are you going to call up the people you visited and tell THEM to call everyone else up, etc? I can’t see that being viable.

    I hadn't thought of that!

    I think half the issue is the messaging is so unclear and is so much propaganda about world beating they've missed the point!

    I was also thinking the only people I've been 2m within are my bubble at school (who would inform staff and parents) and my DS!

    But you're right. It's not about now - the system is developing for those wider opening things.
    I know they've said T and T needs to be up and running before gradual reduction of restrictions but they've not explained the above.
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MRex · 26/06/2020 09:41

(@Snailsetssail - but thank you for focusing on the OP question, rather than getting sidetracked about apps that aren't yet rolled out!)

OP posts:
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MRex · 26/06/2020 09:39

@Snailsetssail - if details aren't provided because they haven't seen anybody then that should really be a separate category. Every newspaper seems to be suggesting it's non-compliance. Kier Starmer was even suggesting it should be identifying all unknown cases, using the 30k ONS estimate as a target, which would suggest interviewing much older cases of covid as well to track forward.

OP posts:
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EdithWeston · 26/06/2020 09:23

It wouid have stood a considerable beter CE f orking here if the government had realised it wasn't remotely reasonable to propose Keens T&T data for 20 years

That Apple and Google cooperated on this, and have higher standards on data protection than the UK government (only apps the companies think are reasonable can be launched) is good on them (for once). And shows what the government in a bad light

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THisbackwithavengeance · 26/06/2020 08:18

I suspect that the people who are now digging their heels in over T&T are the same ones who were whinging about the lack of T&T earlier on in the pandemic.

The Government are damned if they do and damned if they don't. People just want to be anti-authoritarian and will say black's white just to be so.

T&T was never going to work here in any case and I am surprised the Government ever considered it. It only works in countries like China and S Korea where people fear and respect the authorities and there is less emphasis on individual rights and a greater herd mentality.

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Snailsetssail · 26/06/2020 07:52

Where are you getting your information?

The last research I read said around 25-% provided no contact details, but not because of non compliance. Either because they hadn’t been in close contact with anyone they could name, or because they were uncontactable.

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CheshireChav · 26/06/2020 07:50

Non of the government systems work perfectly, but if a decent proportion do the 'right thing' then it helps.

Even if you didn't (or couldn't) follow the guidance to isolate for 14 days, you would hopefully pay more attention to social distancing and hand hygiene.

It will make a difference even if that 1 in 4 don't comply.

It's like the 'beach scenes' the majority of folk in the UK didn't go to a crowded beach yesterday, the majority of people there will have exercised at least a little bit of common sense and socially distanced, anti bacced etc ... if the 'majority' of people make a concerted effort to fight the virus I'm sure we'll be ok.

It's like the 'majority' of people contribute to society, and they keep the social balance ticking over nicely the handful of folk that don't are diluted.

I've worked throughout Covid, I've not seen family and friends - but I've made the conscious decision not to let the selfish in society negatively affect my equilibrium

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Redolent · 26/06/2020 07:37

@Ilovemypantry

I don’t quite understand the Track and Trace.

Surely if you know you feel unwell and think you have Coronavirus you would automatically contact the people you have been in contact with recently. Why do you need to provide a tracer with phone numbers of your friends/family for them to make contact with them?
Or am I missing something?

Under the new relaxations on 4th July, things could get very complicated and track/trace may well be required. You can go and stay with family on Monday, that same family could go to a birthday party on Tuesday, their birthday party hosts could have lunch at a cafe on Wednesday then go visit the in laws on Wednesday... If you test positive later that week, how are you going to keep track of all those connected interactions? Are you going to call up the people you visited and tell THEM to call everyone else up, etc? I can’t see that being viable.

Interesting case study yesterday of a family in Texas wheee 18 people now have the virus.

“ The infections began after one relative, who was unknowingly sick with coronavirus, came into contact with seven family members at a birthday party in Carrollton, Texas, on May 30, according to area outlet WFAA. Those seven relatives spread the virus to 10 others through interactions.”
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LastTrainEast · 25/06/2020 23:42

@ohthegoats

Because the government don't follow their own guidelines, why should anyone else.

because it prevents people dying. Are you 12?
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Derbygerbil · 25/06/2020 23:34

There's no limit to the number of times that you could be asked to self isolate so if you're unlucky you'd be screwed. Not sure you even get sick pay?

If we get to the point when people are being required to self-isolate again and again, then we’d have had a massive infection surge again and track and trace would be overwhelmed!

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Starlightstarbright1 · 25/06/2020 23:21

I am self employed- I have been on reduced income since Easter, I don’t go to Crowded beaches. I don’t generally act irresponsibly ( in terms of guidance) so I feel I have given enough .

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LangClegsInSpace · 25/06/2020 23:04

@Ilovemypantry yes you are missing something. None of your friends or family will be able to take time off work to isolate unless they are officially told (i.e. by the government) that they are a contact.

DIY contact tracing only works if none of your contacts has a job.

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ineedaholidaynow · 25/06/2020 22:48

@Ilovemypantry you won't be standing within 2m of them for 15 minutes in a shop

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Ilovemypantry · 25/06/2020 22:42

[quote ineedaholidaynow]@Ilovemypantry if you have been to a pub/restaurant you won't know the people who might have been at the table next to you. As you will be closer than 2m then they come within your contacts. That is why under the new rules if you go to a pub etc you have to give them your contact details.[/quote]
Yes I understand that part of it...providing your details to a pub/restaurant but what about the person you’ve been standing next to in the supermarket...can it pick that up too?

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ineedaholidaynow · 25/06/2020 22:32

@Ilovemypantry if you have been to a pub/restaurant you won't know the people who might have been at the table next to you. As you will be closer than 2m then they come within your contacts. That is why under the new rules if you go to a pub etc you have to give them your contact details.

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JaceLancs · 25/06/2020 22:00

I don’t trust them with storage and potential misuse of my data

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Ilovemypantry · 25/06/2020 21:49

I don’t quite understand the Track and Trace.

Surely if you know you feel unwell and think you have Coronavirus you would automatically contact the people you have been in contact with recently. Why do you need to provide a tracer with phone numbers of your friends/family for them to make contact with them?
Or am I missing something?

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HeIenaDove · 25/06/2020 21:44

Plenty of money to paint a plane though.

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LangClegsInSpace · 25/06/2020 20:15

Because this government has not provided any support for contacts who need to quarantine. Two weeks on SSP is a massive financial hit for most people, especially as it comes on top of a long period of reduced income for many and especially as it may happen more than once.

Because this government has squandered so much public trust over the course of this pandemic (and there wasn't a lot to start with). Many people do not trust the government with their data, or their friends', relatives' and colleagues' data. Often with good reason.

Because this government has given so many mixed messages over the course of this pandemic. We were told 'lockdown' was to flatten the curve and save the NHS (which we have achieved, thanks to a frightening hollowing out of the NHS and a couple of million 'extremely clinically vulnerable' people being told to get in the fucking cupboard and stay there until it's safe for the rest of the population to go to the pub) - you can't blame people for thinking we've done what we need to because that's what they were told we needed to do and we have done it. A few people are even still banging on about herd immunity because the government said that too.

Why would people think contact tracing was important when the government spent February, March, April and the first half of May pretending it was not important?

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