Schools around Europe

[epythymy]

Hi,
I would like to put together a letter to my local MP as well as the local council and perhaps the headteacher of my children's school. None of whom (Yorkshire) would appear to want children in school at any point in the near future, perhaps for the whole of the next academic year.

I know schools across Europe have returned (Denmark and Switzerland in particular) with no obvious second spikes. I would like to use other schools as evidence as well as local and national data to better form my argument.

The local and national data is obviously quite easy to come by but the whole of Europe is massive and I would appreciate some narrowing down for googling etc.

Are other schools social distancing? Are schools back full time and for all children? Are your children being told horror stories constantly about how unsafe they are like my 6 year old?

Anything you want to add that you might think helpful would be appreciated. Thanks!

[CornishYarg]

LienD And yes, agree that the way Belgium has recorded deaths has contributed to you having à high death toll. Similarly, Germany's total is affected in the opposite way because of their reporting method.

[CornishYarg]

LienD Thanks for your reply. The communication from your government sounds good and I hope things continue to improve there. Taking action quickly seems to have been a key factor too; our government's dithering in March has proved very damaging imo.

[CornishYarg]

I think we’re mostly in agreement really.

Yep! Track and trace is vital; the 10 infecting 11 is OK if you know where they are but will quickly escalate if not.

R rate is definitely a vital piece of the jigsaw, but it needs to be looked at alongside other data and info. The impact of the Weston-Super-Mare hospital outbreak on the r rate of the SW, which otherwise has low levels of infection, shows how it can't be taken at face value.

I definitely think Belgium is an important country for us to observe. It's a fellow Northern European country with a high population density and was badly affected by coronavirus.

[LienD]

*CornishYarg Overall I have the feeling we complied pretty well with the lockdown measures. Ofcourse there's always a few who think they can stand above it all. The first few weeks of the 'hard' lockdown, streets were so empty it was almost scary.
I've heard of a few people continuing to break the rules and they had to face court almost immediately. It was widely covered on the news ofcourse.

But reading this forum gives me the impression we complied better than UK.

I think our government took the correct measures right away and communicated about it daily via a press conference. I'm also convinced that our fairly high death toll is because we count all deaths, even the 'suspected' ones in care homes amongst out death toll.

So everybody understood the urgency of it all. It also made us all very proud of our health care system that did not break under pressure. And seeing the decline of the numbers gives a true boost in the mindset of us all. We see that the efforts of everyone paid off.

Now we're scared to see what the effect will be of the mass demonstration of BLM in Brussels yesterday where about 10k people attended... The virologists are scared and not happy ofcourse.

[Astabarista]

I read that too and I think that’s a logical yet perhaps over logical way of looking at r rate. 1000 becomes 500 and it goes down. 1000 becomes 1100, then it exponentially increased from there. If 10 becomes 11 it grows too. This started with 1.

The article I read also stressed about 10 becoming 11 “If R is sustained above 1, however, the situation could rapidly deteriorate.”

So we also need to get the test and trace properly up and running to stamp a rise above 1 out straight away.

I guess I’m more conscious because I live in an area where it’s 1.1 and am vulnerable with a condition my kids carry and could be made worse by this.

I do think that once our r rate is down and the test and trace is fully operational we should follow Belgium for more children.

I think we’re mostly in agreement really.

[CornishYarg]

LienD This is probably a difficult one to answer, but how well did people in Belgium comply with your lockdown measures? There's a perception on here that there are a lot of people "flouting" the rules in the UK and that we didn't lock down "properly". Whereas in the rest of Europe they locked down properly and people were obeying the rules better. Just wondering if that's fair in your opinion, especially as your lockdown sounds similar to ours and not as strict as, say, Italy and Spain.

[LienD]

During lockdown there was 'emergency care' at school for keyworkers. At our school you had to register and provide a written note of your employer that you could not work from home.
That still exists for the day(s) your school is closed.

As from today restaurants and bars are open, but with a limited capacity ofcourse. Lots of them decide not to re-open but keep doing the take away instead.

The mantra as from today is 'you can do anything again, except for those things that are explicitly forbidden'.

Ask away if you want to know more!

[CornishYarg]

That's really interesting LienD thanks.

[CornishYarg]

Do you know the timescale Belgium opened other things? How locked down everything else is?

As of today, pubs, restaurants and bars are reopening with social distancing in place. Also fitness centres, but not swimming pools. Non-essential shops, zoos, museums and markets opened a couple of weeks ago, also with social distancing. Like us, they seem to be doing a lot all at once. I agree with you that I don't think this is a good strategy as if the rate goes to again, they won't know what caused it.

Their lockdown was similar to ours I think, in that people were allowed out for exercise locally (and no form required like France). Don't know what happened with key worker children and schools.

As a side note, I agree that we need to get our r rate and number of infections down further before making major relaxations. But we do need to be wary of looking at the r rate in isolation; it needs to be considered alongside numbers of infections especially as the numbers become lower. A good example I read on here recently: if 10 people are infected and go on to infect 11 others, the r rate is 1.1. If 10,000 people are infected and infect 5,000 others, the r rate is 0.5. But the first scenario is much easier to get on top of. Germany's r rate has apparently fluctuated between 0.4 and 1.2 in recent days.

[LienD]

And indeed, the mental wellbeing and development of the kids, especially the younger ones outweighed the risks related to Covid19.

[LienD]

And indeed, the mental wellbeing and development of the kids, especially the younger ones outweighed the risks related to Covid19.

[LienD]

I live in Belgium:

For all kids under 12: schools are open as from today. But the school can decide on how they organize this. My son is 4 and his school is closed on Wednesday when they do an extra cleaning/disinfect the building.
Each class is a 'bubble'. They have their designated play area on the playground, they eat sandwiches in their class room, they don't mix with other kids.
Teachers for kids under 6: no face mask, no social distancing. Only face mask when talking to parents.
In the morning you bring your kid to the gate. A teacher welcomes them and first thing is disinfect hands, then they're off to their area on the playground.

[Astabarista]

It will be interesting to observe them but as their R rate was far lower thai ours is now. It was 0.58 in mid May. In mid May they only had 20-30 deaths.

It’s good news that they can now open to more but we need to get our R rate down first like they did.

Do you know the timescale Belgium opened other things? How locked down everything else is?

I feel our problem is doing so much at once ... it’s impossible to know if schools opening has an effect or not when many measures are taken at the same time.

[CornishYarg]

Belgium also only opened for a small number of pupils going in two days a week

Yes, as I said in my first post, they opened to a couple of classes on 18 May. As of today, primary schools are open to all pupils.

And Belgium are having 10-20 deaths a day. Not 200-300

The paediatricians wrote their letter at the end of April. I suspect they probably did have at least these numbers of deaths then, especially when you adjust for population sizes, given their high death rate. Italy and Spain, which you compared us to, also have low death levels now. But they and Belgium and France, all had high deaths before so it's worth observing what they do and how it goes.

To be clear, I'm definitely not saying we should copy Belgium - they've only just fully returned primary schools today! I'm saying they previously had a high death rate so it's worth seeing how this goes for them to help inform our decision when our infections and deaths are also lower.

[TheCanterburyWhales]

[Piggywaspushed]

I think you should gather this evidence, if you must, from people who actually know, or at least from trustworthy primary sources, not those who can do the same Google as you could.

[CornishYarg]

I'm not saying we should send all children back now like Belgium, just that their experience over the next few weeks will provide useful data for us

[Bollss]

@MsJaneAusten

I’d start by comparing the R rate in other counties to ours. Then stop.

The r rate is not the be all and end all! It would really help if people understood this before spouting it as some kind of holy figure.

[Astabarista]

And Belgium are having 10-20 deaths a day. Not 200-300.

[MashedPotatoBrainz]

We're in Sweden. Ds has been to school like normal throughout. They are cleaning the desks and seats at the end of every day and the kids are being told not to hug, but they do. They normally have PE in neighbouring school, which has stopped to reduce infection risk.. Likewise the swimming lesson at the public pool have stopped.

Schools finish for the summer this week and the usual end of term concerts and ceremonies have all be changed or cancelled to reduce infection spread.

[TheCanterburyWhales]

Cornish- yes it is. Also because they have, apart from a couple of days, not missed any school.

[Astabarista]

Belgium also only opened for a small number of pupils going in two days a week.

[Astabarista]

Belgium’s R rate has been below 0.6 for some time.

You can’t compare.

[Hugepeppapigfan]

Ask for more funding for schools like Denmark were given for extra staffing and outdoor handwashing facilities. And masks and visors for school staff. And smaller groups. Smaller than 15.

[WifeofDarth]

If making comparisons with Denmark please emphasise that they have a higher ratio of teachers to pupils than we have, so can accommodate more children in small groups than we can. So to be like Denmark we will need to invest in more teachers in the UK. Also, as outdoor learning is a strong part of the primary curriculum there, schools are already equipped for this. Here our 6+ curriculum is classroom based, with few schools having the experience and facilities to support outdoor learning. Again, immediate investment in this area would help us get more children back to school safely.