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Covid

Late or no admittance to hospital in order to keep the NHS from being overwhelmed

63 replies

Sosadandempty · 21/04/2020 08:10

I have been hearing / reading about this for a long time. Having read this thread and others on here, I wanted to ask how we can highlight this issue so that the media pay attention. I have read a couple of articles but why isn’t it more of a scandal, and why does no journalist seem to be asking the question during the Downing Street conferences?

It seems that in a bid to stop the NHS from being overwhelmed, many people are not taken in to hospital with corona symptoms until it is too late / if at all, leading to home and hospital deaths which might have been avoided. And while I am sure some people are taken in earlier, I have heard and read about countless examples of this not happening.

In fact it seems that hospitals are not overwhelmed (a fact that Downing Street repeats every day as a marker of success), so why is the 111 apparent policy of advising people to stay at home until they are practically unconscious (with blue lips and a lolling head one poster said) in place?

It seems best to bypass 111 completely and to call 999 instead - but even then I have heard of paramedics coming out only to not admit people who are really suffering and frightened Sad. It’s frightening.

Are the lower death rates in places like Germany in part due to earlier hospital admittance?

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Humphriescushion · 22/04/2020 09:02

I am very uneasy when i see the gov announce the fall in hospital admissions each day and the numbers in hosptial.Something is very wrong for deaths to be so high and the admissions so low. I feel that this is not being picked up on. Clearly i dont want the hospitals to be overwhelmed but there seems to be a lot of capacity.

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Sosadandempty · 22/04/2020 08:20

It's Darwinian, fucked up, dangerous and disingenuous.

I completely agree @chubley.

I’ve been telling my friends to get pulse oximeters now (some of whom reacted a bit ConfusedHmm) and will try to get one myself.

Am also going to write to my MP today and as well as the issue of non-admittance, will bring up the issue of people who live alone or with young children being scared that they might contract the disease and will languish at home incapacitated and unable to do anything about it.

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SarahTancredi · 21/04/2020 15:00

So theoretically as the whole point of lockdown Is to not overwhelm the nhs and apparently we arent and its successful then surely that means when people carry on dying it's going to show that actually lockdown isnt working yet so they will extend it and extend it causing extreme poverty and financial ruin the public cant recover from when the whole time the problem isnt so much the virus but people not being treated for the virus?

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crazydiamond222 · 21/04/2020 14:36

@chubley. I read that the 2nd deadlier phase could be linked to the over reaction of the immune system in some patients.

In some patients the virus triggers a"cytokine storm,"can happen when the immune system triggers a runaway response that causes more damage to its own cells than to the invader it's trying to fight.

I hope you feel better soon. The article says that this immune response is meant to occur at around 7 days into the infection so you should hopefully have avoided it if you are 5 weeks in.

www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/04/07/828091467/why-some-covid-19-patients-crash-the-bodys-immune-system-might-be-to-blame?t=1587475626900

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chubley · 21/04/2020 14:00

@crazydiamond222 that's interesting and very informative.

I was following some of the lungs threads where several posters were buying pulse oximeters, as I suspect I've had Covid (not tested) that although felt mild started 5 weeks ago and is still going on with lingering after-effects eg chest tightness and coughing up sputum.

So the 80% of Covid pneumonia patients who don't go on to the second and deadlier phase of lung injury - are they the ones who fortunately make a full recovery, and is it known yet why they avoid the deadlier phase?

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SquishySquirmy · 21/04/2020 13:18

@Meredithgrey1
Thank you, it is reassuring to hear that there is a call back system in place.

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chubley · 21/04/2020 13:04

There must be a public inquiry afterwards, but they will try everything to shift the blame onto the public and the NHS and away from the politicians as possible. This is not political about which party is in government, I don't care about party politics, just about lack of quick, decisive action and robust policies that are actually in the public's best interests. We have all this capacity now for testing, why not roll out to anyone with symptoms?

Paramedics will get shouted at if hospital staff see the patients as not 'unwell enough'. Nor are 111 staff allowed to refer, as far as is apparent. The ambulance service is overstretched and short-staffed, all the extra resources to fight Covid seem to have gone to the hospitals.

I read that Guardian article - what is bound to happen is that the increase in people dying at home will eventually be blamed on the people themselves. Policies over admittance where you have to be practically death-adjacent just results in media news "hospitals are not full, they have capacity". Then people write threads saying what's the point of the Nightingales (I despair).

More sinister, if you remember northern Italy a few weeks ago, when hospitals were overwhelmed, policy in this country over admittance will mean the politicians and health bosses will say "didn't we do well, we built these field hospitals, and we ended up with plenty of spare capacity, give ourselves a pat on the back (and they will be sure to write this up in full for the public inquiry)". Where will the evidence be of failure to admit, as actual hard evidence rather than anecdotal, all those who couldn't get anywhere near to being admitted despite being really unwell and struggling to breathe? Govt must have been fearing relatives turning up at hospitals demanding their relative is the one to get the ventilator. 111 calls will just be presented as a set of data.

It's Darwinian, fucked up, dangerous and disingenuous.

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cathyandclare · 21/04/2020 13:02

Yes, i've read lots of reports about the 'happy breathless' and I think that's why current triage is not effective for a proportion of patients. Some health apps have oximeters but I'm not sure how effective they are. Getting one is a sensible investment at the moment.

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crazydiamond222 · 21/04/2020 11:55

There is a really interesting discussion about oxygen saturation and covid patients here based on experiences of an ER doctor in New York. It sounds very worthwhile to purchase an oxygen saturation monitor to use at home:
www.nytimes.com/2020/04/20/opinion/coronavirus-testing-pneumonia.html

'And here is what really surprised us: These patients did not report any sensation of breathing problems, even though their chest X-rays showed diffuse pneumonia and their oxygen was below normal. How could this be?

We are just beginning to recognize that Covid pneumonia initially causes a form of oxygen deprivation we call “silent hypoxia” — “silent” because of its insidious, hard-to-detect nature.

Pneumonia is an infection of the lungs in which the air sacs fill with fluid or pus. Normally, patients develop chest discomfort, pain with breathing and other breathing problems. But when Covid pneumonia first strikes, patients don’t feel short of breath, even as their oxygen levels fall. And by the time they do, they have alarmingly low oxygen levels and moderate-to-severe pneumonia (as seen on chest X-rays). Normal oxygen saturation for most persons at sea level is 94 percent to 100 percent; Covid pneumonia patients I saw had oxygen saturations as low as 50 percent.

To my amazement, most patients I saw said they had been sick for a week or so with fever, cough, upset stomach and fatigue, but they only became short of breath the day they came to the hospital. Their pneumonia had clearly been going on for days, but by the time they felt they had to go to the hospital, they were often already in critical condition.

In emergency departments we insert breathing tubes in critically ill patients for a variety of reasons. In my 30 years of practice, however, most patients requiring emergency intubation are in shock, have altered mental status or are grunting to breathe. Patients requiring intubation because of acute hypoxia are often unconscious or using every muscle they can to take a breath. They are in extreme duress. Covid pneumonia cases are very different.

Avast majority of Covid pneumonia patients I met had remarkably low oxygen saturations at triage — seemingly incompatible with life — but they were using their cellphones as we put them on monitors. Although breathing fast, they had relatively minimal apparent distress, despite dangerously low oxygen levels and terrible pneumonia on chest X-rays.
We are only just beginning to understand why this is so. The coronavirus attacks lung cells that make surfactant. This substance helps keep the air sacs in the lungs stay open between breaths and is critical to normal lung function. As the inflammation from Covid pneumonia starts, it causes the air sacs to collapse, and oxygen levels fall. Yet the lungs initially remain “compliant,” not yet stiff or heavy with fluid. This means patients can still expel carbon dioxide — and without a buildup of carbon dioxide, patients do not feel short of breath.

Patients compensate for the low oxygen in their blood by breathing faster and deeper — and this happens without their realizing it. This silent hypoxia, and the patient’s physiological response to it, causes even more inflammation and more air sacs to collapse, and the pneumonia worsens until their oxygen levels plummet.In effect, the patient is injuring their own lungs by breathing harder and harder.Twenty percentof Covid pneumonia patients then go on to a second and deadlier phase of lung injury. Fluid builds up and the lungs become stiff, carbon dioxide rises, and patients develop acute respiratory failure.

By the time patients have noticeable trouble breathing and present to the hospital with dangerously low oxygen levels, many will ultimately require a ventilator.

Silent hypoxia progressing rapidly to respiratory failure explains cases of Covid-19 patients dying suddenly after not feeling short of breath. (It appears that most Covid-19 patients experience relatively mild symptoms and get over the illness in a week or two without treatment.)

There is a way we could identify more patients who have Covid pneumonia sooner and treat them more effectively — and it would not require waiting for a coronavirus test at a hospital or doctor’s office. It requires detecting silent hypoxia early through a common medical device that can be purchased without a prescription at most pharmacies: a pulse oximeter.

Pulse oximetry is no more complicated than using a thermometer. These small devices turn on with one button and are placed on a fingertip. In a few seconds, two numbers are displayed: oxygen saturation and pulse rate. Pulse oximeters are extremely reliable in detecting oxygenation problems and elevated heart rates.

Widespread pulse oximetry screening for Covid pneumonia — whether people check themselves on home devices or go to clinics or doctors’ offices — could provide an early warning system for the kinds of breathing problems associated with Covid pneumonia.

All patients whohavetested positive for the coronavirus should have pulse oximetry monitoring for two weeks, the period during which Covid pneumonia typically develops. All persons with cough, fatigue and fevers should also have pulse oximeter monitoring even if they have not had virus testing, or even if their swab test was negative, because those tests are only about 70 percent accurate. A vast majority of Americans who have been exposed to the virus don’t know it.

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ChicChicChicChiclana · 21/04/2020 11:46

I feel that this woman and her family

guardian link

were badly let down, whichever way you look at it.

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crazydiamond222 · 21/04/2020 11:42
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Porcupineinwaiting · 21/04/2020 11:41

Both China and Germany have reported better outcomes with earlier and more consistent oxygen interventions though.

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Carriemac · 21/04/2020 11:37

The Italian experience has shown that we need to keep people out of ihospital as much as possible
Lombardy admitted everyone and had far worse outcomes that Venettonyhat didn't . Something to do with viral load and exposure in hospital I think

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crazydiamond222 · 21/04/2020 11:37

Thanks for the NICE guidelines. It does appear only the most severe cases are admitted to hospital


'3.4. Use the following symptoms and signs to help identify patients with more severe illness to help make decisions about hospital admission:

severe shortness of breath at rest or difficulty breathing

coughing up blood

blue lips or face

feeling cold and clammy with pale or mottled skin

collapse or fainting (syncope)

new confusion

becoming difficult to rouse

little or no urine output.

Use of assessment tools

3.5Although theNICE guideline on pneumonia in adults: diagnosis and managementrecommends using the CRB65 tool, it has not been validated in people with COVID‑19. It also requires blood pressure measurement, which may be difficult or undesirable during the COVID‑19 pandemic and risks cross-contamination (seerecommendation 1.4).

3.6Where pulse oximetry is available use oxygen saturation levels below 92% (below 88% in people with COPD) on room air at rest to identify seriously ill patients'

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Bimbleboo · 21/04/2020 11:34

@porcupineinwaiting that sounds about right. I’m glad you got some kind of medical attention mind you.
But typically, the 111 service just becomes a revolving door for patients who are willing to play the game properly. Prior to covid, If you mentioned excruciating abdominal pain and fever, or atypical breathing problems or sensitivity to light and crushing headache, that will trigger a response. People learn thats the only way to be taken seriously and not told to self manage. So some will just realise that’s the button to push.
I worry that now ambulances will only be sent out to those who are willing to say their lips have gone blue, when they haven’t. And that ambulances will be dispatched out and then leave those people in their homes anyway once they are found not to actually meet criteria. (Not that I’m advocating for that either. If some threads are to be believed, the criteria is terrifyingly negligent)
Additionally many others will stay at home and not contact services because they’ve been told they won’t be responded to until those criteria are met. That’s even more terrifying and the whole system is a shambles (if indeed it is performing as MN would have us believe across all regions)

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MigginsMs · 21/04/2020 11:25

This is yet another Tory bashing thread from a 99% percent left wing Mumsnet audience.

Bashing aka holding the elected government to account for their handling of a crisis is entirely appropriate.

I suspect it’s been a deliberate strategy to keep numbers down by only reporting on deaths in hospital. If they can stay and die at home they don’t affect the government’s figures.

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Porcupineinwaiting · 21/04/2020 11:22

@Bimbleboo it certainly is still the case, even with COVID

When my symptoms flair badly I struggle to breathe. This feeling is a accompanied by the feeling of there being a crushing weight on my chest. After a couple of weeks of this I tried to use the 111 system to speak to a doctor (GPs direct a coronavirus patients to 111). 111 call handler asked me to describe my symptoms, moment I used the phrase "crushing weight" I was passed to 999 and ambulance dispatched as it's the trigger phrase for heart attacks. I tried to say I didnt want an ambulance (I'd had the feeling on and off for two weeks by this point) just to speak to a doctor, no dice. Paramedics then arranged for gp to prescribe antibiotics which is all I'd wanted in the first place. Total waste of time.

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RunningAwaywiththeCircus · 21/04/2020 11:14

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nellodee · 21/04/2020 11:13

We have heard for years that one of the main problems for the UK was the issue of "bed-blocking" and the inability to discharge patients due to lack of social care. I want to know, have all these "bed-blockers" been sent to care homes to die and infect other residents?

Any hospital social workers able to shed light? (Are they still social workers? I used to work in home care a long time ago, but I know they have shuffled the boundaries between health and social care since then.)

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Bimbleboo · 21/04/2020 11:09

@RunningAwaywiththeCircus as an absolute Non Tory voter I agree with every word you’ve written. To the letter. Which I guess is evidence of this not being a political argument.

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Bimbleboo · 21/04/2020 11:07

111 can be very hit or miss and while I don’t blame individual call handlers, I agree it’s used to bring down admissions. But not fit even for that purpose. They have a checklist and often the wrong callers are dismissed while others have ambulances sent out that aren’t needed, purely because they know the ‘key words’ you have to say that leave the call handler with no choice but to send one. I image THAT problem isn’t current as the goal posts have changed for covid. But it was definitely the case when I was a HCP that ‘frequent flyers’ were often the largest dynamic rushed in ambulances because they had just learned the symptoms you had to quote for action. While many others were not triaged in who absolutely should have been, because they were missing one line on a checklist. Completely unfit for purpose.
On the other hand, the nhs just doesn’t have the resources for what would be a fit for purpose service. There’s no resources for an actual doctor to asses all those calls. There’s no capacity for everyone to be seen before it gets to a 999 level.
I’d assume that’s even more prominent now.

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RunningAwaywiththeCircus · 21/04/2020 10:58

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Meredithgrey1 · 21/04/2020 10:53

To be frank, I am worried that there are already bodies lying undiscovered behind closed doors. Even worse is what happens if there are young children in a house with an incapacitated single parent? Are there any welfare checks or follow up calls?

When I had a call back from a Dr at 111, she asked if I wanted to be put on the Covid "call back" list where someone would ring me daily until I was feeling better. The reason I rang was severe stabbing chest pain when breathing and moving but my cough and fever had gone so she thought it was a pulled muscle from coughing so much so she said she didn't think I needed the follow up and neither did I once I'd spoken to her, so I said no. So, I don't know how well it is aactually being followed up. But it was offered.

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ChicChicChicChiclana · 21/04/2020 10:51

And when dh was ill, my very good friend who is a healthcare worker offered to drive us to our local A+E (large London teaching hospital) as she said it was pointless calling 999.

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ChicChicChicChiclana · 21/04/2020 10:48

I agree 111 in general is not fit for purpose. We had cause to ring them when DH was ill with covid-19. They rang back approx 18 hours later at 5.20 on a Sunday morning. As we did not pick up the phone (we were asleep) they left a message saying they were closing the case.

How can you dispute the facts @Popuppippa? Have you looked at how many people have died of covid-19 in Germany? Their population is more than 20% larger than ours.

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