Do some people not realise that the money that governments have to pay for things comes from taxes?

[Thedogshow]

I keep hearing people say things along the lines of ‘letting people die so that people can go shopping’ and ‘so that rich people can get more money’ etc. As if the other option would be to just chill out forever at home, get paid by the government and wait until this mythical time when we are ‘safe’ from coronavirus.
But the NHS, universal credit, all social care etc is paid for by money that is obtained by the government from income tax, corporation taxes, duties on alcohol etc. The alternative is to borrow more money from countries like China.
Surely they understand this?
If all businesses are shut and no one is earning the government will quickly run out of money. If lots of big businesses go bust it is catastrophic for the country. If banks go bust everyone loses everything. It makes the UK extremely vulnerable. And domestically, so, so many jobs will be lost, both in the private and public sector.
It is pretty important. Wanting the economy not to tank is not greed, it’s essential to protect the whole of society.
Nothing comes from nothing.

[adiposegirl2]

The devil is always in the detail...
For you purveyors of Wikipedia, read the functions of the BoE... Are you still convinced the UK Government owns the BoE?

[milveycrohn]

To the posters who say the Government can just print more money (nowadays known as quantitative easing). This will cause inflation.
The Bank of England has already reduced interest rates, which is part of that.
Otherwise the Gov raise money by taxes, and on spending (vat), and by borrowing eg. Gov bonds.
The main difference between the various parties, is where they raise the money, and where the money is spent.

[GhostofFrankGrimes]

But I hate even more the smug Lefties who blame Tories for everything yet think the sun shone out of Brown's arse!

I don't think "lefties" would have a great deal of time for new Labour but at least in those 13 years they wern't ideologically destroying public services. Before that we had 18 years of "greed is good" Thatherism that set us on the road we find ourselves today, deseprate to inflict more hardship on ordinary people (everyone must suffer for the greater good of neo liberalism).

[Kazzyhoward]

Maybe Tory apologists should stop engaging in whataboutery. The tories have been in government for 10 years!

But Blair/Brown spent their 13 years blaming everything on the Tories before them.

At the end of the day, they're all as bad as eachother. I hate both with a passion. But I hate even more the smug Lefties who blame Tories for everything yet think the sun shone out of Brown's arse!

[GhostofFrankGrimes]

Maybe Tory apologists should stop engaging in whataboutery. The tories have been in government for 10 years!

[chickenyhead]

Yes, they should indeed. I think that they should be held to account. Tony Blair should have been held to account too.

If there are no consequences, why make fully considered decisions?

[Kazzyhoward]

No, because then maybe someone would ask why the tories allow it to continue.

Maybe people should challenge Gordon Brown on why he allowed tax evasion and avoidance to spiral out of control on his watch????

[chickenyhead]

I cannot believe some stuff on here.

The tories called the referendum on brevity. People wrongly trust politicians. Suicide was never a feasible solution so why offer it up?

The tories knew 2 years ago that the UK was ill prepared for an inevitable pandemic. Yet instead of tackling this fact it stripped the civil service to its bare bones and destroyed the systems meant to protect us.

For example, letting the great UK public invest their own pension pots.

The insolvency service, who will no doubt be expected to deal with this collapse and recover funds from unscrupulous fraudsters feasting on this site show is not fit for purpose anymore.

The losses over the last 10 years due to fraud and a lack of adequate systems to tackle it have already crippled the country, it just isn't a popular media subject.

Anyone even aware of the 11bn MTIC fraud gap owed to the UK by the EU? No, because then maybe someone would ask why the tories allow it to continue.

[GhostofFrankGrimes]

I certainly do know the effects of redundancy and lack of funding in public services to individuals and communities. Squeezing the life out of of everything, making society poorer is not the answer especially when their is alot of money swilling around that is supposedly untouchable and vanity projects continue to get the green light. Making more people worse of has a long term effect on health, education, life expetancy and it will still be the taxpayer in the long run that has to clean this up.

Private sector workers (professional roles) enjoy good salaries when the sun is shining but when the economy tanks of course they are vulnerable. You can't subscribe to capitalism on part time basis, you take the rough with the smooth, Its a flawed system. Lashing out at nurses, teachers etc - the bedrock of a fair society (not one built solely on financial gain) is not the answer.

[Kazzyhoward]

Income tax is more than corporation tax.

Someone taking profits as dividend pays BOTH not just corporation tax!

[BubblesBuddy]

At the last recession lots of private sector workers were made redundant and took wage cuts. Real wage cuts such as 10-20. % to keep employers afloat. You have no idea about the hardship this caused and resultant damage to pension payments. You seem to think the impending recession is the same. It most certainly is not. That’s why we need to look at everything because this is a total catastrophe. It will make 2008 look like a blip. Seriously this means we must try-evaluate what we can afford and what people can realistically pay.

[GhostofFrankGrimes]

A race to the bottom is only inevitable if people subscribe to that notion, as they did with austerity. The rich get richer the COVID19 heroes get poorer.

[BubblesBuddy]

The race to the bottom is inevitable with a recession. 20 per cent have great pensions, security of employment and a job for life. Others are far more precarious but no one seems remotely concerned.

[GhostofFrankGrimes]

Ah, the old public vs private argument. Divide and rule. Private sector needs to unionise and camapign for better pension provision. This would be far better than embarking on a race to the bottom. If people have worse pensions in retirement they won't make very good consumers will they?

Some of us value the NHS already thats why I didn't vote for austerity, pay freezes, axing bursaries etc.

[BubblesBuddy]

Income tax is more than corporation tax. That’s why people do not opt for it! Anyone self employed and has paid income tax on their earnings has paid more tax. Others have avoided it by paying dividends. Otherwise why would anyone pay dividends if the tax was greater? It’s not. Definitely for smaller traders.

[BubblesBuddy]

Public sector pensions are very generous when compared to others. Look at the crash of pension funds right now and see where that leaves anyone else. If you are retiring right now and not employed by the state, heaven help you. Annuities will be very poor value and nowhere near what public sector workers get whose pensions are funded to the tune of £13 billion each year by the state. Private workers don’t get that. Perhaps the playing field should be levelled?

The nhs should not be about money. It costs £125 billion each year. It needs to be funded in another way for some services. We also need to value it and use it wisely. Insurance schemes could work as in Germany. We must be open to all points of view and alternative options.

[Kazzyhoward]

One of the interesting issues arriving from the help for the self employed is the number of people taking dividends only. My DH was self employed in a professional partnership and his accountant always said to pay themselves a living salary and pay income tax on that. It’s often more than other taxation but avoidance of it is rife. The numbers of people not paying income tax is huge!

Tax is still paid on dividends. Corporation tax of 19% is paid on the profits and then personal tax at 7.5%/32.5% or 38.1% is paid on the dividends paid out of the after tax profits. It's certainly not tax free - in fact very similar to tax on sole trader profits.

There's a lot of nonsense posted about how dividends are tax free - they're not.

[GhostofFrankGrimes]

Lots of their in work benefits and pensions are generous and funded by the state.

Public sector pensions are not as "generous" as they used to be, it was another stick to beat workers with (public vs private).

It’s not a sustainable model now.

Of course it is, it just needs political will. Something it hasn't had for 10 years.

[BubblesBuddy]

I agree Ghost. However tax avoidance won’t be enough. One of the interesting issues arriving from the help for the self employed is the number of people taking dividends only. My DH was self employed in a professional partnership and his accountant always said to pay themselves a living salary and pay income tax on that. It’s often more than other taxation but avoidance of it is rife. The numbers of people not paying income tax is huge!

I fully understand public sector workers spend and pay taxes but they are more bomb proof in other ways. Lots of their in work benefits and pensions are generous and funded by the state. I’m not saying we don’t want them or value them but pay increases have to be paid for by others.

We need a root and branch evaluation of the NHS. It’s not a sustainable model now. We have abused it in too many instances. Smarter working and paying for it is a must.

[alloutoffucks]

@MigginsMs The economy should operate to help people. It is not a beast separate from us. The idea that economies can grow every year is a false one. Every decade has its recession and proves that. Capitalist economies actually seem to need recessions to continue to operate okay. And the attempts to stop any recession happening in the 90s were proven foolish. I remember the magazine articles about how the west had stopped recessions from happening.
Recessions are tough on individuals. But I also know many economists were saying we were overdue one and that it was going to happen anyway. Trying to stop recessions happening at all is like trying to stop the tide coming it.

[alloutoffucks]

@ bubblesbuddy Pension funds have dropped dramatically. This has happened before. Shit for anyone very close to retirement. For most of us they will have built up again by the time we retire.
And the level of unemployment being talked about is the same as during the 80s. That was tough. Extras people are used to like lots of take away coffees and eating out will become less common. But plenty of people were still happy then, and will be happy now.
One thing I think a lot have learned from our lock down judging from posts on MN is what is really important. It isn't buying random shit. It is seeing friends and family and there is a lot of joy in everyday things.

[Iwalkinmyclothing]

Left wingers aren't renowned as being the brightest bulbs on the tree OP



If you realised just what a twit this sort of made you sound, you would cringe.

[MigginsMs]

Yes, some people are clueless. It was the same around Brexit as well. People don’t realise that “the economy” is not just some abstract idea lining the pockets of Philip Green, it’s actually everything.

[alloutoffucks]

Thank you OP. I thought it came from some magic money tree.
Like the £53 million wasted on Boris' Garden Bridge that never happened.
By the way I have read quite a few economists now saying that a sharper stricter lock down would in the long run be better for the economy than half measures, partial lock down, opening up, then lock down again. That it is far harder for the economy to recover from a strung out scenario like the one some are proposing.

[LastTrainEast]

"So why dont Governments own their own banks and print or I guess create numbers on a screen? Although that would be the common sense approach, common sense is not a bed fellow of politics."

And then we have collatwrlamadamage who I think may be a freeman on the land with the mystical Bank Of England stuff and the 'money isn't real.'

The Bank of England is owned by the UK government and while bank notes have no intrinsic value 'money' does and we can't just make more or we'd all be rich.

I'm not half as scared of the virus as I am of being stuck on the same planet as some of you.