Is there a casual and callous attitude towards pregnancy and childbirth in society?

[PeaceAndHope]

Hello everyone:)

I'm sorry if I have posted my question in the wrong section but since I am a newbie I hope you'll all overlook it.

I have spent a lot of time recently wondering about the varied attitudes to childbirth and pregnancy and the lack of proper information regarding the process amongst most people.

I do believe that with the advancement of technology and better care we have been able to make the process a lot safer than it was in say the 1700s when the maternal mortality rate was 35%. However, it is my observation that people tend to take the whole thing for granted and assume all will be well because "women have been doing this for millenia".

I have keenly researched this subject and I have noticed that whenever I point out the risks associated with pregnancy and birth the reactions are those of disbelief and annoyance. I once brought up the possibility of fecal incontinence post childbirth and was admonished (by a man) to stop 'scaring people'.

I recently read a comment on a men's website that said "Pregnancy is the safest thing ever. It's not dangerous-to say that it is dangerous is misleading".
I certainly agree that the mortality rates in the developed world are rather low, but death is not the only thing that makes a process risky.

Pregnancy comes with superficial risks like permanent body changes to more serious ones such as permanent incontinence, diabetes, hypertension, uterine prolapse, obstetric fistulas (although these are rare), and even a permanent colostomy. Even in the developed world women still die of haemorrhage and aneurysms while giving birth.

Why is it that bringing this up tends to anger most people? Why do most people deny that these complications exist despite clear cut medical evidence that they do?

Is it traditionalism by virtue of which women are "meant" to bear children and therefore how can the process not be safe? Or is it just a paternalistic refusal to acknowledge that women do put themselves at risk for a series of complications (irrespective of whether they occur) when they have children?

I am not trying to imply that pregnancy and childbirth are horrible, evil things but I do believe that the attitude towards them is a bit casual and ignorant.

Your thoughts please?

[brandysoakedbitch]

1. In my opinion, women should be given written research papers and facts informing them about possible complications from all modes of delivery and intervention and the ways of avoiding them. There should be an opportunity to discuss individual concerns regarding the written matter in antenatal appointments.
   

[brandysoakedbitch]

Have you had a baby Peace?

[shagmundfreud]

I think women need to be aware of the frequency with which forceps and ventouse are used - they're very, very common in first births in particular.

And they need to know that serious complications following ventouse and forceps are rare, but if they do occur they can make you very unhappy.

Also know how to recognise if things aren't right after birth and to know what the best treatments are for these problems, and how to access them.

I'm not against giving out enough statistical information so that they can make sense of the likelihood of complications with c/s, ventouse, forceps etc, happening to them.

But actually a couple of paragraphs in Emma's Diary, and half an hour Q&A in a decent antenatal class with a knowledgeable and pragmatic midwife/antenatal teacher, would be information enough for most women.

OP - would that satisfy you?

[PeaceAndHope]

Brandy:

Yes, I have children.

Question: what 'stats' have I posted and what exactly am I saying that is fucked up?

I'm happy to hear that you are in good health even after 4 children. I am however talking about women who aren't as fortunate. I'm talking about the general attitude of people towards pregnancy and childbirth. Comprende?

[shagmundfreud]

"And what of the fact that many of them will not even have known that this was a possibility before it happened to them."

I don't think anyone would justify women going into birth with no idea of the possibility of postnatal complications. Or PND, for that matter.

I think we're all singing from the same song sheet on this one surely?

[brandysoakedbitch]

General random strangeness - hurrah

is there a button for that?

Don't be daft I just know a few weeks ago there was a very very similar threa to this full of the same stats and I am concerned - I don't think what I am posting is strange I think it disagrees with you and the OP and that is allowed

[SardineQueen]

What is emma's diary?

None of these things were mentioned on my antenatal classes, and others on here had the same experience. Also a conspiracy of silence surrounding BF problems.

So there is a problem.

[brandysoakedbitch]

But it is a natural process, the problem with it is that it has been taken and medicalised (a lot of that is for the good of course) and taken out of the hands of women and made them feel like they cannot do it

I would also be the first to agree that TV has a lot to answer for: everyone screaming and laying on their backs and having emergencies - there is another side that is all I am saying and it is in the information you receive (well in my area anyway) but it is about measure and not scaring the shite out of people.

[PeaceAndHope]

Shagmundfreud:

I don't believe that complications are uncommon following interventions such as induction, ventouse forceps or even cesarians done late in labour.
The level of severity can obviously vary but the morbidity associated with an operative vaginal birth is quite high.

What would satisfy me that's a tough question. A simple with a HCP or a few antenatal classes certainly wouldn't be enough. I've often found their opinions to be a bit biased and agenda driven. That is what makes the availability of evidence based, impartial information for first time mothers so important.

[brandysoakedbitch]

No I asked if she was the same person, am I not allowed to do that? I do think researching these sorts of stats is a bit anal and fucked up (forgive the pun) that is just what I think. Asking someone if they are the same person is that troll hunting?

[SardineQueen]

"But it is a natural process, the problem with it is that it has been taken and medicalised (a lot of that is for the good of course) and taken out of the hands of women and made them feel like they cannot do it"

Yes I would agree with that.

BUT at the same time, pregnancy and childbirth always have been terribly dangerous and are still usually the most dangerous thing a woman in the western world will do in her lifetime.

There is a place for medical intervention and there is a place for giving women, who are after all grown-up real people, the full information about what can happen.

[PeaceAndHope]

That was a 'simple chat'... Missed a word there.

[brandysoakedbitch]

I don't agree that is is 'terribly dangerous' sorry that is an overstatement

[SardineQueen]

You don't think that pregnancy and childbirth have always been terribly dangerous for humans?

Dangerous, then. A bit dangerous? Dangerousy-wangerousy-woo. You might end up just a little bit dead. Slightly, like.

Better?

Should I stop worrying about countries around the world with high maternal mortality? Wahey!!!!

[NoWayNoHow]

Wow, brandy aggressive much?

I don't know why there is so much aggression aimed at the OP. She raises a valid point that many women go into childbirth whithout knowing the risks and, more importantly, what they can do to avoid them.

Not everything is a conspiracy theory

[shagmundfreud]

"I don't believe that complications are uncommon following interventions such as induction, ventouse forceps or even cesarians done late in labour.
The level of severity can obviously vary but the morbidity associated with an operative vaginal birth is quite high"

Most women will have an episiotomy or second degree tear after a forceps or ventouse delivery. The vast majority of these women will have uncomplicated healing.

Thankfully.



"What is emma's diary?"

It's a health information booklet which the majority of women in the UK are given during pregnancy

"Also a conspiracy of silence surrounding BF problems"

Actually there's not much talk about feeding problems in general. I've never heard any sensible discussion (other than on these boards) or seen any health information which looks at some of the day to day challenges of bottle-feeding.

Not sure it's a conspiracy.

[brandysoakedbitch]

No conspiracy theory mentioned or implied. So tell me how can one avoid forceps? or episiotomy? or tearing? or incontinence? they do happen yes but in reality they are not actually avoidable as such. Obviously keeping mobile etc improves things etc but any Midwife would tell you that and it is self evident I assume with gravity and all. I am not sure reams and reams of research pointing out the risks of everything would change the outcomes for women and babies.

'Dangerous, then. A bit dangerous? Dangerousy-wangerousy-woo. You might end up just a little bit dead. Slightly, like.

Better?'

[NoWayNoHow]

brandy you don't agree that childbirth is "terribly dangerous"? Tell that to the ONE IN EIGHT women in Africa who die giving birth. And that doesn't even take into account infant mortality.

[shagmundfreud]

"She raises a valid point that many women go into childbirth whithout knowing the risks and, more importantly, what they can do to avoid them."

No. It's also the case that most of us get in a car every day without having a clear idea of exactly how likely we are to die or be injured in an accident. We just know it's possible and we do what we can to avoid it.

Most women know that birth can go wrong. They know about instrumental births - that they happen and that they can be a difficult experience and leave women with perineal damage.

The OP has nothing to say about what women can do to reduce the likelihood of these risks other than to have a planned c/s, which is not acceptable for the majority of women in the UK (or in most other countries actually).

[brandysoakedbitch]

Agree about lack of info and support re. breastfeeding - very very frustrating and absolutely avoidable too

[SardineQueen]

Christ it's a figure of speech, not meant to be taken literally

I can rephrase - it also seems the case that ante-natal class leaders and others involved in ante-natal care are unwilling to bring up or answer questions on potential problems with BF and how to handle them. Based on my own experience and reading these boards I know other people have found this.

I had a baby in 2007 and another in 2009 and have never heard of this emma's diary. Does it have information about forceps and stuff? I wonder why they don't do it in our borough.

[SardineQueen]

"Most women know that birth can go wrong. They know about instrumental births - that they happen and that they can be a difficult experience and leave women with perineal damage."

You see. I don't think they do. I didn't. Or at least I had a vague idea, that things could go wrong "down there", but no idea of just how bad it could be. People don't talk about it with people who haven't had children, generally, and the antenatal things don't cover it. I know that some of my friends and many women on here have been genuinely shocked at the aftermath of VB on their bodies, and that things might never get better etc.

[brandysoakedbitch]

But we were not talking about women in Africa - we are talking about well informed and cared for women in the west. Globally of course it is dangerous -I had no idea one in eight dies but assume that malnourishment and lack of maternity care have a little to do with that stat if it is accurate.

If you are a poor black woman in America with no adequate health cover it is very dangerous - don't they have the highest infant or maternal death rate in the developed world????? have i made this up? rings a bell anyway so forgive me

Agree with Shagmund about the car analogy - good point and well raised