weaning

[mummy2t]

Hi all My little one is 20 weeks old and i have just begun to offer a very small portion of baby rice mid morning, he is doing really well with it and really enjoying it. Today i offered the baby poridge and he loved that too, how long should i wait before a offer more tastes and eventually start the proper veg and fruit purees? i dont want to go to fast with it all
all advice welcomed
steph x

[hercules1]

Again, being a paed doesnt mean you are an expert on weaning or even upto date.

[mummy2t]

ok some i am to trust you on advice, when i have just meet you on the internet than my gp who i have known for 10 years?

[mummy2t]

ok who do we speak to about it all then??

[hercules1]

Of course not. I would however trust the WHO over your gp even if you've known your gp for 50 years.

[mummy2t]

u cant say that when you dont even know him and what training he has had.
what do you do when you are ill?

[VictorianSqualor]

The people in the know, the real experts.
For breastfeeding, for example, check out the BfN, or the NCT, or ABM, La Leche League. People who are trained simply in breastfeeding.
For weaning, the WHO are the most upto-date with things,
It's best to search out DoH and WHO guidelines and see what you can discover from there.
Sadly, the information we need isn't as readily available as it should be.

WRT your SIL, I'm not sure, and haven't used formula in 7years so can't say I know much about it any more, but I would say, as with a breastfed child, as long as baby is gaining weight, has plenty of wet/dirty nappies and is alert and well then she is getting enough. The amount needed will vary from child to child.

[hercules1]

He may have a certificate and be a really nice guy. That doesnt mean he knows better than WHO.

[GreenMonkies]

I am not going to trawl through the whole thread, but I will say that babies have growth spurts at around 3 weeks, 6 weeks, 12 week, 18-20 weeks and again at about a year. During these times they become more demanding, fussy, wakeful and hungry. If you are bf you just feed on demand and your supply picks up to a higher level. If you are ff you give an extra ounce, if this means you are giving a huge bottle the volume of which makes the baby sick then add in an extra (small) feed, try giving bottles every three hours instead of four.

The Dept of Health says;

6 Does the new recommendation apply
to babies fed infant formula milk?
6.1 Yes. The Sub-group on Maternal and
Child Nutrition of the Scientific Advisory
Committee on Nutrition (SACN) concluded
that there are unlikely to be any risks
associated with delaying weaning to six
months in infants who are mixed fed (on
breast and infant formula milk) or solely
fed on infant formula milk.
6.2 Six months is the recommended age to
introduce solid foods for all normal healthy
infants. Health professionals should consider
infants? individual development and
nutritional needs before giving advice
to introduce solid foods any earlier.
7 Why introduce solid foods at six?
7.1 Exclusive breastfeeding to six months
provides the best nutrition for babies.
There are nutritional and developmental
reasons why infants need solid food from
six months. Infant?s need more iron and
other nutrients than milk alone can provide.
7.2 Infants are usually able to take soft pureed
foods from a spoon, form a bolus and swallow
it at about five months. However, it is not
until about six months that infants actively
spoon-feed with the upper lip moving down
to clean the spoon, chew,22 use the tongue
to move the food from the front to the back
of the mouth, are curious about other tastes
and textures and develop their eye-hand
co-ordination. By six months, an infant can
also have finger foods. The older the baby,
the more readily they will accept a varied diet
of texture, taste and amount (COMA 199423).
8 Will waiting until six months affect
a baby?s ability to chew?
8.1 No. This misconception appears to have arisen
from an old scientific/research paper presenting
case studies of children who remained on a liquid diet for 6-10 months, most of whom
had developmental delays or disabilities.
A hypothesis was suggested that ?if children
are not given solid foods to chew at a time
when they are first able to chew, troublesome
feeding problems may occur?. This has since
been quoted and inappropriately extended to
younger babies with normal development24.
9 Is waiting to introduce solids until six
months likely to produce a ?fussy eater??
9.1 No. There is no evidence to support the idea
that starting solids at six months is more
likely to be associated with the baby being
a fussy eater. Indeed, a randomised trial
comparing breastfed babies started on solids
at either four months or six months in
Honduras found no difference in appetite or
food acceptance as reported by the mothers25.
10 What about parents who choose not
to follow the new recommendations?
10.1 Parents should be advised of the risks
associated with weaning before the neuro
muscular co-ordination has developed
sufficiently to allow the infant to eat solids.
Solid foods should not be offered before
four months (COMA 199423). However, if an
infant is showing signs of being ready to start
solid foods before six months, for example,
sitting up, taking an interest in what the rest
of the family is eating, picking up, and tasting
finger foods then they should be encouraged.
11 What are the risks associated
with starting solids early?
11.1 Introducing solids before sufficient development
of the neuro-muscular co-ordination (to allow
the infant to eat solid foods) or before the
gut and kidneys have matured (to cope with
a more diverse diet), can increase the risk of
infections and development of allergies such
as eczema and asthma.
11.2 Certain foods are more likely to upset a baby
or cause an allergic reaction than other foods.
These foods should not be introduced before
six months (COMA 199423).

Monkies

[GreenMonkies]

Sorry the formatting is all wonky!

Monkies

[mummy2t]

i know what the DOH says, but if you read my posts i was in a situation and didnt see another way out, i offered smaller feeds more more regular but he was feeding on the bigger feeds every 2 hours at times so i couldnt have got much more regular. i left it for afew weeks before starting to wean as i understand about the growth spurts. I have always fed my Ds's on demand, none of this 4 hour routine lark

[brio]

jeah but i do feel like i should encourage him when he wants to do something new. and i belive every mom can see what is best for their babys. when they r ready and up for a new challange. my ds can sit, crab and do all this stuff. and when he sees the food he can almost run
dont think its wrong to give him solids time to time, when he is ok with it and wants them

[josiemacy]

I dont normally post much on MN - I tend to seek advice by reading others threads, more than anything. However I just HAVE to extend a hug out to mummy2t! You poor thing - bet you never thought that an innocent query would lead to such a heated debate!
I cannot really answer your question as such - only just started weaning DD (at 6mo I have to say - she didnt seem interested before now!), but I have had friends that weaned early, some late, some used no purees & only did BLW, others that did pureees alone till 9mo! All the colours of the rainbow! Every child is different, & you HAVE to follow instints / GOOD advice from people who know your child (ie GP/HV), & the needs & wants of that child. Therefore ignore other so-called 'helpful' mums on here who have made you feel so bad. Stick with what you are doing - for every 1 baby that has a bad tummy experience from early weaning, there will be 50 who are fine (just like all stories in life from childbirth to wisdom teeth removal!). Big hug! Others seem to have good advice on here for you. x

To VS - can I just say that new mums post questions on here BECAUSE they want to do what is best & right for their child. To make others feel awful at a time when women feel at their most vulnerable, worried, responsible & terrified of doing the wrong thing is just not on. Can I just ask what your background is...clinical dietician? paediatrician? gastro-intestinal specialist?... Hmmm. You would have read these opinions that you have (& so eloquently portrayed by using swear words, conceit, sarcasm & name-calling), & beleived the opinions & research enough to stick by them - others have read contradicting things. The thing is that in this PC world, too much scaremongering occurs. You do not help the situation. Instinct counts for everything. And even if you were trying to be helpful, there are nicer & more compassionate ways to impart your words of 'wisdom'
By the way - I had to look at your info to see who on earth you were, & apparently you hope to be a doula! WHAT??!! Good luck with that - try compassion & empathy. Your foul-mouth & conceit will not get you much work. Its great being gung-ho about the health of the baby - think about the fragile mums, too.

[VictorianSqualor]

josiemarcy, I know all about fragile mums thankyou very much.
But I also know that once a thread descends into the back-patting of mothers who are weaning early by other mothers also weaning early then you need to make sure you get heard.

Maybe you should read the whole thread, from beginning to end and see my first posts. I did not change the way I was speaking until the thread had become ridiculous and actually dangerous for new mothers with no idea about what to do, to read.

No, I'm not a clincal dietician, btu I ahve read numerous studies that the WHO and the DoH base their recommendations on, much much better reasons behind not weaning ealry than this whole 'you know your baby' ;go with your instinct' crap.

I'll refer you to my first post on this thread....

The research behind weaning shows that when born baby's stomachs are permeable, to allow them to absorb the milk easier to digest. Only milk should be entering the stomach when it is permeable to avoid possible allergies or stomach/digestion problems in later life.

The permeability allows antibodies from breastmilk to go through to your baby's bloodstream, but by feedng them now parts of food can also go through which can cause allergies and stomach complaints.

Somewhere between 17-26 weeks the stomach becomes unpermeable, and 'seals' which is when the baby is physically internally ready for solids. Unfortunately we can't tell which baby is ready at 17 weeks, and which is ready at 26! That's why they say to wait.

It has been suggested that once your baby can sit unaided, grab food, put it in their mouth, chew and swallow that they are likely to be ready internally, until then nature wouldn't allow us to be developmentally ready and we would fail at some point in the process.

[VictorianSqualor]

"you HAVE to follow instincts / GOOD advice from people who know your child (ie GP/HV)"

One of the most laughable remarks I have ever read on here.

Read the archives about the hundreds of MNers given bad advice by their Gp&HV. Then do your own research into the guidelines.

Once you've done that you may have a leg to stand on but until then you're just another person posting their opinions.

The facts I gave about weaning were just that facts, no opinion necessary.

[josiemacy]

Yes, YOUR opinions based on facts that are the current guidelines (GUIDElines). As you know, these change from decade to decade when new research occurs.

And yes,I did read your posts from the beginning. The posts before yours were helping mummy2t in something that she had already started, & the advice was good (sticking to small amounts of rice ONLY until 6mths if already introduced, & then introduce other foods) I do know what the guidelines are & why, but not every baby, as you admit, fits into this mould. I am not advocating one way or another when it comes to weaning (as i said in my post), & I am certainly not back-patting ANYONE for bringing up their child in THEIR way. I also follow the guidelines & didnt begin weaning till DD was 6mths.

I am purely pointing out that 'advising' people with such a condescending & conceited matter doesnt actually help much. And if you know about fragile mums, then you should, perhaps, be a little nicer?

[VictorianSqualor]

How is me saying that a baby is not necessarily ready for food at 20 weeks an opinion?
It's a fact.

[VictorianSqualor]

And, sorry, but how is 'carry on giving your baby food too early when they may possibly not be ready for it' AKA 'just give only baby rice, but carry on' good advice??

[TennantbellesMum]

Previous guidelines haven't been based on research though, they were based on opinion and what everyone else was doing.

Once we used to use leeches to balance the humours, but we did research and found things out that we didn't know before that we didn't have the technology to know before and we changed what we did because of that.

[TennantbellesMum]

And they're guidelines because you can't legislate parenting!

[josiemacy]

So if she had ALREADY started giving baby rice at 20 wks, you would advocate stopping until baby was 6mo? Theres no way you can do that. Therefore the advice for her CURRENT situation was sound.
And I am FULLY aware that advice fro HV/GP's arent always the best, but dont tar all with the same brush - there are some brilliant HV's out there - hence me saying GOOD advice from someone who knows your baby, & has known them since birth. I stress again - they are GUIDElines.

[VictorianSqualor]

Yes, I would advocate stopping, as you will see, I did advocate stopping.
I instead suggested a way she could try weaning early, safer, and in a way that her baby could make the choice.

[josiemacy]

I dont disagree with what you are saying at all, but mummy2t started babyrice at 20wks, which is the EARLIEST starting age for solids recommended by the Dept Of Health Guidelines (note, recommended only. Babies do not come with a set of rules & instructions!) Therefore, whats the problem? I understand all of the facts you have to hand - I admire your tenacity to these guidelines, & the fact that you are well versed in them - but all guidelines are just guidelines, & all babies have different needs dependant on growth, development etc (a friends baby has just cut her 11th tooth at 9mo!). There has to be some cases that need adaptation. We are not robots!!
Anyway, I dont wish to get into fisticuffs about this with you - we could go round&round all night. You obviously strongly adhere to all of life's guidelines. Hurrah & applause to you.

[VictorianSqualor]

Actually the earliest they say is 17weeks.
The earliest a baby could be ready is 17weeks.
The latest is 26weeks.
How does the OP know her baby is ready before 26 weeks?
The answer is she doesn't. The closest way to tell is to see how they fare developmentally when you let them try to feed themselves, hence I suggested that.
Of course I do not follow all guidelines, but I do follow those that are set to optimise my baby's health.

[josiemacy]

The DofH recommends 20wks, but CAN be weaned anytime from 17-26wks. Of course there is no way of knowing whether the internal organs & digestive tract is mature enough to tolerate this. However, if a previously satisfied baby suddenly wakes throughout the night, & demands more milk than can be tolerated, & the mum rides out the 2-3days it can take for a growth spurt to be the obvious cause, then the recommendations suggest earlier weaning as long as advice is sought from the healthcare professional. I think Mummy2t said she had advice from HV, GP & a paediatrician.
A set of guidelines has to be a broad spectrum to cover all bases, & if advice is obtained from a clinical source, & these recommendations are given, then this over-rides any set of national guidelines, in my eyes.
Some babies are ready for (and likes) food, but dislikes lumps. Some babies want to pick up florets of brocolli & feed themselves early. THEY ARE ALL DIFFERENT.
However, this is just my personal opinion.

[VictorianSqualor]

The guidelines are 26 weeks, not 20 weeks.
See here they say 6 months.

Babies wake through the night for a variety of reasons, growth spurts can last more than a couple of days and GP&HV's are not experts in infant nutrition or they would have suggested BLW not baby rice.

The safest way to start weaning is BLW if started before 6 months with a child that is not premature, so why would 'experts' recommend pushing baby rice into a baby's mouth that has no say in the matter?

It seems, with further exploration and trial, that the OP's baby is ready for solids, but now she can be satisfied she is doing the best possible way forward for her child and anyone else who reads this thread who may have considered weaning early, hopefully will allow their child to lead the way too, and not think mush on a spoon is going to be 'safe' without any other way of checking.