discipline

[threeangels]

I would suggest using the timeout method also. I have 3 children 12, 9, 17mos. For the two older ones I put a chair in a specific place in the house and left in the same place all the time. I used a child size one. After I gave my child two chances of warning for whatever the reason then I would resort to using the timeout chair. They hated to be isolated away from everything fun. 20 months is not too young to discipline. I do discipline my youngest with the timeout only for a minute though. He is still not totally sure about it yet. He is starting to get familiar. It is better to start this early. They may be hard to handle at this age now but at least they will know they have boundaries later. I hope this helps. Good Luck

[bells2]

Well what works for us to remove our son from the kitchen (where the bad behaviour usually happens), put him in the hall outside and close the door. He is perfectly capable of opening the door and coming back but he never does, he simply stands there and cries. We always give him a big cuddle, he is very apologetic and his behaviour improves. Personally I don't think its necessary to lock the door, simply the act of being removed from every one else seems to have enough impact.

[SofiaAmes]

Libby65, I'm sorry, I did not mean to imply any condemnation of your disciplining methods. I'm just genuinely interested in how different parents discipline their children, how they rationalize it and how effective it is. I thnik that ultimately it really depends on the personality of the parent and child. My son usually tells himself off thus saving me the trouble, but if further disciplining is involved then I find a smack more effective and less traumatic to him than putting him in his room. Interestingly if I put him in his cot in his room, he not only doesn't mind it, but doesn't actually realize he's being punished. At 25 mo. I find tha talking to him firmly is really the best way to get him not to do something, but sometimes he is so busy pushing boundaries that it's not enough. I'm sure my dd will require something different as she has a very different personality than him. I am very interested in what other parents do and why, as I'm sure I'll need some ideas. And I'll have to rationalize it all to dh who was beaten regularly as a child and won't do anything in the discipline dept. except shout (which I actually think is not very nice and extremely ineffective).

[Libby65]

Apology accepted SofiaAmes . Sorry to hear about your dh's experiences too. I am sensitive about this because I get so genuinely upset when I think of ds being traumatised over something I've done. It's a vicious circle because on the occasions when his behaviour has gotten out of hand, the only way I can think of to stop it is to put him in his room. Then he gets upset, I get upset, and I spend the next few hours feeling guilty about it.

Mollipops I've actually tried the laundry once, and that seems to have the same effect as putting him in his bedroom - he gets just as uptight. He doesn't seem frightened of his bedroom after a time-out, he still goes to bed ok at night and sometimes will play in there for a little while. Mostly he likes to play close to where we are (like the living room), which I guess is why they hate time-out so much.

It's so hard.... I keep hoping ds doesn't turn out to be too screwed up by my failed attempts at discpline, although it's probably me that will end up being more affected by it than ds. I can see myself being racked with guilt and pondering on all the mistakes I've made, while he'll probably turn out to be just fine .

[bluestar]

We use the chair as a naughty chair/time out etc. Sometimes the threat of sitting on the chair is enough to change the behaviour. It's only the sofa but if he has to sit on it, he's not allowed to get off, unless he can change the behaviour. Once he gets off, he is usually very timid and wants a big cuddle (which he gets). We find that this method can be practiced by everyone that looks after him and that most people will have a chair. Sometimes ds is just so over tired that I think he likes the thought of sitting down and doing nothing - perhaps if I'm naughty dh will sit me on the chair and let me do nothing, wouldn't that be nice!

[Tinker]

But how do you make them stay on the chair/settee/ whatever? I'm genuinely intrigued as to how people manage this. My daughter wouldn't even entertain the idea.

[WideWebWitch]

libby65, I don't think you'll traumatise your son for life by using some discipline now, honestly! Although I know it can feel like it at the time I've done both - smacking and time out - but I wouldn't smack now (ds is 5) and I always regretted it anyway when I (rarely) did, since it was usually in anger and it didn't work! So if you don't want to smack, try not to.

I agree, it's the removal of your attention that's the punishment so saying go over to the sofa/room/wherever and I don't want to talk to you until you have calmed down, said sorry etc is a tactic worth using. Agree with everyone who said it's the removal from the room that's the big deal. If you can manage it you could try withdrawing attention completely (carrying on with what you're doing, singing away to yourself, anything except talking to your ds) or distracting instead. I have locked myself in the bathroom with my mobile phone (to rant to dp, lucky him!) several times and that also worked for me since I was removing myself from the situation. I have also locked ds' bedroom door in the past but have to admit that it made matters worse, so I only tried it a couple of times. It does seem cruel doesn't it but I do know what it's like to be driven to it! Good luck with finding something that works.

[SoupDragon]

Tinker, I used to think it was easy. We would take DS1 to the bottom stair and tll him to sit there until he calmed down and was ready to apologise for whatever and he'd stay there. He'd even go by himself if sent there.

Then DS2 came along and all he does is say NO and run off. I guess it depends on the child!

[aloha]

My own ds is too young to discipline (and never does anything that annoys me, either!) but I used to look after some monster kids and found ignoring was so effective. My stepdaughter is also naturally 'good' so didn't need anything but a minute on the naughty stair (from her dad) to calm her down, with other kids, I'd just resolutely ignore then when they misbehaved in a major way. No 'nos' no shouting, no telling off, just complete ignoring. If there was something fragile or breakable within range, I'd calmly remove it, then sit and read or watch tv (or pretend to) and not even give them the satisfaction of a glance - no eye contact or contact of any kind. They'd rampage for a bit, then slowly calm down, then eventually give up. It happened even faster if I got out one of their toys or books and appeared fascinated by building lego or reading a picture book - they'd sidle up and want to join in. I had to be quite fearless - especially if they were fighting quite viciously, but nobody ever ended up in casualty! IME shouting and trying to 'sort things out' just stoked the fire by giving them the attention they craved and only ignoring worked. If they won't stay on a 'naughty stair' I'd suggest just walking away (having removed precious breakables) and doing something else such as having a cup of tea or reading the paper until they calm down.

[clucks]

I mentioned earlier that DS apologizes and I forgive him v. quickly. I have been wondering recently if he actually enjoys apologising and making up, because he is so naughty and so willing to apologise immediately afterwards. He has learnt to apologise fairly recently and asks to make up and hug, leaving me to wonder whether it's all a big game and I'm the biggest fool ever.

During the really big bust-ups (much rarer) he absolutely refuses to say sorry or stop being a monster, and attacks me. This is the most trying time for me and I've started threatening withdrawal of treats with limited success. I'm convinced girls are easier to discipline, until later on anyway.

[aloha]

Clucks, I assume you always follow through on any threats? Ditto trying to discover the reason for his frustration and anger & praising all good (by which I mean normal, friendly, helpful) behaviour to the hiltetc? If so, I think a little enforced time out for violent behaviour is entirely OK. I also think it is important to act on the act (IFYKWIM) - so if he hits, he gets a time out straight away, not after the second or third hit.

[aloha]

But do try the ignoring if you haven't already. It does work! If he tries to hit you, pick him up and put him away from you without any eye contact or talking and go back to doing something else for as long as it takes. It's much harder with your own children, I know, but when smacking isn't an option (or forcing a child into their room) you have to be inventive!

[clucks]

Yes, I do carry out the threats and he does realise its a punishment, it's just a really battle because then he'll lose his temper again over his punishment.

Something that really embarrassed me was when he threw a toy at his grandmother and it hit her in the recently operated eye she was meant to protect. Her specialist was very blase and said it happened all the time with toddlers. I dread him seeing her now. Also, the blooming grandparents refuse to tell him off at all. I think showing off their superior parenting skills or something or they think it's my job. This is another thread altogether but it doesn't help to be undermined when you are trying to instil discipline. DH and his male siblings were regularly thrashed and are all pretty wayward in one way or another, so don't really have any parenting role models in the family.

Neither of us were ever smacked but I was such an obedient child never experienced discipline really. Read Christopher Green and the others and it's what I do, except the shut in the room bit. Don't know anyone who thinks they've got it just right. One particularly well-balanced friend of mine thought the child was suddenly autistic at age 4 because he suddenly calmed down and stopped fighting her. She reckons it will come with maturity anyway, but she is one of those, you know, perfect mums.

[aloha]

Clucks, ignore me completely if you think I'm being patronising/have got hold of wrong end of stick or something, but I wouldn't ever punish loss of temper as such, just if it turned into hitting you/another child or breaking things deliberately. I think it pointless and even perhaps a mistake to punish children for showing emotion. I would just ignore the loss of temper if I thought it was unreasonable, and carry on as normal, or would otherwise try to understand the cause of the frustration and alleviate it. Eg if upset because they want to walk and have to go into pushchair, would either let them walk and get home/to the car very slowly or would let them walk until they got a bit tired, then try again, or pop them in as quickly as poss ignoring the tantrum but immediately distract with a book/toy/biscuit and a promise they could get out as soon as we were at the cafe/home etc etc. Personally, I think emotions are OK, but expressions of them that hurt others aren't. I also think the less conflict you have the better for your sanity!

[bells2]

Ignoring really works for us in the case of a temper tantrum although to be effective I find that I need to start up a separate conversation with DH/ make a telephone call or something rather than just sitting in silence to demonstrate that I really truly am ignoring them. Other than that, giving him a really big strong hug (as somebody here once suggested) also works sometimes.

[jasper]

Ignoring works well on grumpy/unreasonable husbands too

[Libby65]

Jasper

[wmf]

Years ago I worked with disabled children and their able-bodied siblings, and we were taught to use a very effective version of time-out which didn't actually depend on withdrawal of attention. It did depend on stopping the behaviour before it got too extreme though. What we would do was sit the child down in front of us, holding their hands gently if needed, and just look them in the eye and silently wait for their attention. That rarely took more than 10 seconds. If that was sufficient then we'd return to the previous activity, otherwise we would explain in a few simple words as possible what was going to happen next and why. There was a sort of escalating scale from ssitting still for another 20 secs or so, to sitting still without being held, to sitting still while the helper turned their back to the child. (That, by the way was the furthest we took withdrawal of attention.) The children generally learnt the procedure very quickly, and the helpers learnt to what part of the procedure their charges responded best, so after a while we'd go straight from the sitting and looking part to the proper level of time-out for that child.

I can't stress how much this system depended on calmness and consistency. If the behaviour goes far enough to upset you, then it is very difficult to be genuinely calm and gentle.

I still use this with my ds (27m) and it is very effective. Not only does it calm him down but it keeps me calm, too!

[clucks]

Aloha, If I was to punish for temper tantrums I would be an even bigger wreck, really it's only violence (usually me or grandparents, he never hits other children.)I have noticed it escalates when he is refusing to eat but is hungry too (you know that too late for anything point).

wmf, very interested in your suggestion, especially as it works on your little one. how often can you do this before they suss you out and it doesn't work anymore?

[Crunchie]

This thread is really interesting, the fact that what works ofr one child, doesn't for the next. With my first, the 'step' worked well, and still just about works. If she continues then she goes to her room and the door is shut, finally the third option is in her room with the baby gate on the door! She is nearly 4, and I find 9 times out of 10 the step or room works, it's only when she is in such a state and hitting me or the dog that the door gets 'locked' with the baby gate. I have explained to her this is as much to keep her little sister out, to give her time to calm down in peace and that she is allowed to read or whatever. This took a long time to get to, and I think it depends on the age of teh child as to what works. By the way I always start with a countdown, so if it's a little thing this can be enough.

Her little sister who is now 21 months is another matter, we started with the step when she was about 16 months, and tis worked well, she even took herself off there if she needed a scream. Recently she has just started the real screaming tantrums, so I think we will have go onto the ignoring, or going in her cot. The hugging close works a bit if they are pure rage or tiredness, but not if she wants something. I can see she is going to be different than her sister, and I think her tantrums even suprise her!