Worrying behaviour

[sapphire]

My son, aged four, recently became obsessed with bottoms and willies at school, and for a fe months he and two other little boys would disappear into the toilets and touch each others bottoms. Eventually my son was moved to a different nursery session where everything was okay for a while, but then just befor the holidays he firstly put his finger up another boy's bottom (according to the other boy) and then put his hand down a girl's knickers. The school and one of the parents have alerted social services who are coming to visit me next week, and I have seen my doctor who is referring Son to a child psychologist.

Everyone professional I talk to seems to think that he is showing overtly sexual behaviour and that it can only have come about because he has been abused somewhere down the line. He has had a tough year as his father and I separated, but I am 100% convinced that nothing untoward has happened to him either in my home or his father's. Friends seem to think he is just being a bit overcurious and its fairly natural behaviour that he will grow out of. Has anyone encountered similar behaviour at all?

[robinw]

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[sapphire]

Thanks again for all your support and comments. We had the appointment with a paediatrician/psychologist who feels that the sexual behaviour, coupled with the fact that DS is very impulsive and is prone to aggression and tantrums, could be indications of some form of attention deficit disorder. Thankfully he was satisfied that there were no signs of abuse. We've got to go back in November; the clinic are going to work with the school and monitor his behaviour over the next few weeks, and we'll see what happens then.

I had a meeting this morning with the head teacher and deputy, and someone from the Behaviour Support Services. Once again it was implied that this was my problem, my fault, and we seem to be working in different directions - I want to find the cause for the behaviour, which will hopefully help with dealiing with it; the school are all for stopping the symptoms but don't seem in the least bothered as to why its happening.

Anyway, DS started his first day in Reception today, i'm picking him up in about half an hour - fingers crossed he's had a good day.

[SueW]

Someone mentioned about viewing records - actually it's very difficult. As a parent you don't automatically have the right under the Data Protection Act to see your children's records and there is no minimum age for consent.

This is taken from the website of the Campaign for Freedom of Information :

Parents and children
The Act has no minimum age requirement for applicants. Children can apply for their own records provided they are capable of understanding the nature of the request. A parent or guardian can only apply on the child's behalf if (a) the child has given consent or (b) the child is too young to have the understanding to make an application. A parent concerned about a small child's health probably would be able to see the medical record. But a parent wishing to defend him or herself against allegations of child abuse, or looking for evidence to support a custody claim, probably would not.

[Jendy]

Jaytree sorry if I upset you indirectly with my remark. I know not all profs are like that and perhaps could have phrased what I said in a less contentious way. I did say many but not how many, perhaps I should have said a few.

I probably felt a bit mouthy and I'm not making excuses but someone I know had gone through a horrendous battle with school and social services, where the children were only allowed to see one of their parents when supervised. It's over now but they were more than shaken by the way they were treated and are now anxious about everything they do. Despite no evidence coming to light they've been given no apology and feel they've been blackmarked by those in the know. They also felt they received very little support from services and didn't know who to turn to. I know and do agree that the well being of the children are paramount and that most times the people involved do the best job they can. But in this family's case it appears to have been blow up out of proportion which has left the children anxious and the parents angry and anxious.

However once again I am sorry if my unguarded remark offended you.

[ionesmum]

I don't think that anyone has said that no action should be taken against this little boy & his behaviour nipped in the bud. What concerns me is that the school seem intent on finding a child abuse angle to it. What happens if the other parents get to hear of the school's accusations? They might decide to ban their kids from visiting or react in a hostile way at the school gate. Increasingly, when it comes to child abuse you are guilty until proven innocent, and that is why I said about getting legal advice.

Sapphire, I really don't want to worry you with my views (I am sure that your ds will be fine) but the school need to know that they can't get away with making accusations of this sort.

[Janeway]

It's difficult when one person's curiosity intrudes on another person's dignity.

I remember at about 4yo disappearing off under a weeping willow with the boy next door (by mutual consent) to see if girls & boys bums were the same - we were caught with our pants down by my Mum who flipped.

After she calmed down (and my sister who is 9yrs older stopped laughing at me) we talked and established a rule that no subject was taboo to talk about in the home, but I was not to try things out with other people as I may upset someone, or be hurt myself. This allowed me to find things out in a safe way, and helped establish a strong open relationship with my mother which continued all through my teens, my first sexual relationships (I asked her for advice on contraception when I was 16) and on to the present day.

I also remember a boy at school (age about 6) who used to throw our pencils under the table, then flash at you when you went to pick them up - all the girls got fed up with this and made a plan - next time he did it we stood up & laughed at him - he stopped doing this.
I'm certainly not advocating public humiliation, but I think this boy was just after a reaction - some attention - the attention he got was not what he was after, it took away all his power and control over the situation.

I'm not sure how an adult may utilise this with a child without causing too much trauma, but there may be something - a quick mooney perhaps (your bum must have lost all interest to him now) - that can diffuse the tension around the situation, make it all look silly and, hand in hand with talking, turn the thing around?

I can only imagine how this suggestion/accusation of abuse must effect how you/his father are with your boy, (suggesting an mooney may seam totally inappropriate because of this) but you must not let unjustified guilt prevent you aiding your son to explore in an appropriate manner what he needs to find out.

Good luck with the appointment in September, we'll be thinking of you all.

[tigermoth]

It's given me pause for thought, too, suedonim. I'd put both incidents are in the worrying but not extreme category, ie needs to be knocked on the head but not a sure indicator of abuse - However, I think there is one big difference between this and the letter situation, though.

This incident involves outsiders whose decisions can have a huge impact on the family - the school, social services etc. Whatever happens, there's the probability of a report. The parents do not have full control over events, so I think it's totally right for them to question what is going on at every stage - even if the professionals concerned are as conscientious as Jaytree.

The letter situation involved the families of the children only, and was probably resolvable by them alone.

[WideWebWitch]

Good question SueDonim. Something to think about...

[SueDonim]

It's been very interesting to compare the responses here with those on the thread about the crude letter addressed to a five yr old. I wonder if we are guilty of double standards?

[robinw]

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[Jbr]

It's normal for children to be curious. However, if they don't stop, especially when requested by the other child or an adult, that's when it is something to worry about. The act in itself isn't.

Boys also go through this phase when they are aged between 9-12 according to one American psychologist I was reading about (I can't remember his name) and some boys get stuck in that phase (it's called being emotionally retarted) and are still curious about children even when they get older eg 20s and 30s. That is certainly more worrying but it doesn't make them "evil" or "bad".

At the moment though I wouldn't be too anxious - even for me to say I know - unless as I said, he is not responding to requests to stop.

[JayTree]

As I have already said, I really sympathise with your situation and hope that it is resolved quickly and as sensitively for all your sakes.

A lot of comments are critical of teachers and the social services- as an ex teacher I have winced at a couple of points and feel the need to speak out a little! Of course there are many terrible teachers out there (like all professions) but there are equally many hard working dedicated ones who really care about the wellbeing of their pupils. I have gone home on numerous occasions from a large school in the Midlands worrying about individual pupils, spending restless nights pacing up and down concerned about what actions to take/ whether I have taken the right actions - and soon enough, etc. etc. I could give you so much anecdotal evidence of the immensely sensitive work that teachers are expected to deal with - very often. There is basic training for dealing with these situations but every situation is unique. Apart from the black and white rules where teachers who fail to follow the correct procedure will face prosecution, there is a lot of grey area left up to our professional judgement. Rightly or wrong, I doubt very much that 99.9% of teachers would ever involve social services unless they really believed it was the in child?s best interests (I am not commenting or passing judgement on your particular case). There is undeniably a pressure not to miss any possible form of abuse - but, surely every mum would hope this was the case - and there is an unspoken code of always acting on the side of caution. In 100 hundred cases you would want to get all correct, but it is better to be over cautious with one than miss one altogether.
One word of caution to you about records - I know someone mentioned that records are kept - this is very true. There are standard forms that will have been filled in concerning these incidents and will be held in your child?s file - it is a legal requirement for schools to do this. These forms will be kept and are likely to be passed on to your secondary school and read by their new head of year and form teacher - so this incident may not go away totally. I am not 100% sure, but I would imagine that you have a right to read the whole contents of your child?s file to put your mind at ease once this is all dealt with.
Sorry to rant on and on but when it is suggested that experts are just making tenuous links in order to justify their job is really insulting. Sorry.

[Willow2]

Sapphire, what a nightmare, you poor thing. Can only add that, having read Tigermoth's answer, I agree with all that she suggests. I think it is really important that you ask as many questions as are asked of you, and that you keep records of all conversations. I know that sounds alarmist, but I think that in any potentially serious situation it is better to be proactive. Good luck.

[tigermoth]

sapphire, I've just caught up with this thread. What a worry for you. I agree, there seems to have been lots of mismanagement of the situation by the school. I too have heard that new legislation is coming in and teachers face the sack if they ignore possible signs of child abuse. I agree with Khara, this opens the way for a lot of misunderstanding.

When the teachers say they think the 'influence' comes from home, do they mean they suspect 'abuse'? It seems they are not communicating clearly to you. I think their tone and approach is judgemental and over the top, even if this is not the intention.

Is the school seeing the parents of the other children who also initiated this behaviour? You say it started in another nursery class and a whole group of boys were involved. Then your son was moved to a new class. Couldn't the major 'influence' have come from this group of boys and that your son has just carried on with this experimental play? He's so young anyway - it might not have sunk in that it's time to stop. As you say, it could well be a way of getting attention. Your son has told you another boy did it to him first. At worst, he or another of his playmates could be an abused child - has the school investigated this? Are they taking your son's words seriously, too?

I'd want to ask the school how often they encounter situations like yours and if they always call in the social services and school psychologist. If not, why this time? What happened was not desirable, but considering the ages of the children, surely not unique.

I think you should ask the head if the other parents are putting lots of pressure on the school (you say they have talked) and the teachers fear an official complaint if they do not comply. If you suspect that parental pressure is largely behind this, perhaps it's time to say you will also consider launching a complaint and will be keeping a diary of all conversations.

Have you also thought of getting the social worker to contact the school direct to say that they have found no evidence of abuse, or is this what happens anyway. Definitely worth knowing. And is it possible for the social worker to meet the head with you and mediate? This might clarify things all round.

Good luck

[ionesmum]

I do agree with the other comments that you should complain - I would even consider taking legal advice. I really don't want to worry you but there's so much talk of registers being set up of people who are only suspected of abuse. I really feel for you and wish you lots of luck.

[WideWebWitch]

I must admit Sapphire, it would scare the c* out of me. It doesn't sound like excessively unusual boys behaviour so I think involving social services sounds a bit heavy handed. Mmm. Not sure how I'd handle it, but I'm pretty sure I'd be upset and angry at the jumping to conclusion-ness of it all and of the effect on my son. Good luck whatever you do.

[lou33]

Sapphire I agree with Rhubarb, you have to make an official complaint. It is not their place to treat you like this. Keep complaining until you get the response you are happy with. Good luck.

[Rhubarb]

I think I would register a complaint at the school - how judgemental of them!!! How dare they suggest that you are responsible for your sons behaviour by having porn or abusing him!! I would go to the governors and lodge a complaint. Schools have to realise that they cannot jump to conclusions in this way, it is potentially very damaging for both you and your son. Can you imagine if one of the teachers started telling parents!!! They may well do this to another poor parent who may not be as strong as you, so please do complain to the highest authorities!

I'm seething with rage for you!

[sapphire]

Thnaks for all your support! We had the meeting today and the social worker was okay, she seemed happy that there wasn't any abuse going on in the family, and was planning on referring ds to a child psychologist, which of course I've already seen to! Coincidentally, the appointment came through today, for the beginning of September.

Zebra, I agree that it is more likely to be an attention-seeking act. Ds is very much a ring leader and does seek attention all the time - he's always said that someone at nursery touched his bottom first, and being the child he is if he thought it was funny/put him in a position of power he would carry it on. I've voiced my feelings to the social worker and to the school, but the school have kept banging on about how it must have come from home, even to the point of asking me if I have any pornography! Will have to see how things go in Spetember. I'll keep you posted!

[Khara]

Aren't they supposed to be bringing in legislation whereby teachers can be sacked if they fail to spot the signs of child abuse? If so, I think we're going to see a lot of totally innocent cases being referred to social services. After all, teachers aren't experts so they're going to refer anything even slightly suspicious if their jobs are on the line. Hopefully the real experts will realise when it's totally innocent and when it isn't.

[Jendy]

Sapphire what a worry for you - hope everything goes well and resolves soon. But agree with rhubarb et al. children have a natural curiosity which may not fit in with the norms of the adult world, I believe that most will learn what's acceptable or not. I heard lots of tales from people with older children about what they're kids did when they were younger. Many professionals have to make living out of being an expert at something even if what they believe is hypothetical/tenuous rather than actual.

[Rhubarb]

It's terrible that these days children are not allowed to just be without someone labelling them. Sexual abuse is a nasty, horrible and evil thing but as a society we can go too far with the finger-pointing and accusations, and too often the children end up being more scarred by so called do-gooders, then they would have been if they had been left alone.

At 4 years old your son is in no position to be labelled an abuser and I think this is a case of hysteria prompted by your sons school. Obviously if they've received complaints they need to be seen to be acting upon those, but they also have to take into consideration your child's wellbeing.

I would take the stance of sml and tell them all to sod off! Explain to social services what is happening and if they have any sense they will drop the case. Good luck

[robinw]

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